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Let's debate God's existence!
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Does God exist?
Yes
56%
 56%  [ 13 ]
No
43%
 43%  [ 10 ]
Total Votes : 23

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AJHunter
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:54 am    Post subject: Let's debate God's existence! Reply with quote

It was bound to happen some day: someone would post a "Does God Exist?" topic. So I got it over with.
Rules:
[list=]Be respectfull, what you say here could change someone's life!
No cussing, please!
State your opinion clearly, and explain why you believe that way.
Think before you type![/list]
Starting question (feel free to go off on tangents!):
How would you know that there is an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient supreme being that can't be seen?
Go.[/list][/list]
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AJHunter
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe God exists, because humans exist. Without God, humans couldn't have formed, even in the trillion years the universe has supposedly been around. The odds of even just our DNA forming randomly in a way that works and works well are 1 in 4.80 x 10^50.

Quote:
The second law of thermodynamics states that everything moves from a higher energy state or order to a lower energy state or order, unless blocked or energy (order) is added from the outside. Evolution uses random lightning to provide the energy needed for DNA formation. Lightning, while powerful, is not very ordered. Chaos theory states it is impossible to predict how and when lightning will strike. It's commonly said lightning doesn't strike the same place twice (even if not exactly true). Is it possible to scientifically state that the first organism with its 4.80 x 10^50 possible DNA combinations got the right amount of lightning at exactly the right time without then destroying the organism or even amino acids it just created? Let's forget the problem that the rate of destruction of amino acids by ultraviolet light or electrical discharges far exceeds their rate of formation. How long would it take for the right combination to come together? It's incredible! Let's say that 100 BILLION correct combinations came together all at the right spot (that spec of a DNA strand) and in exactly the right way every second. Since there 3 x 10^7 seconds in a year, it would take 100 MILLION, TRILLION, TRILLION years (10^33 years) for all the combinations to come together. The age of the universe is under 15 billion years (1.5 x 10^9 years). All stars in our universe would burn out and the universe itself would cease to exist trillions of years before this could ever happen...

http://www.earthtraces.com/godsodds.shtml
those are big numbers What?!?!


I believe that the Earth is 10,000 years old, tops. That's years of 365.25 days, and days of 86,400 seconds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day) Thats 24 hours.
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Blue Pixel
SPY SAPPIN MAH FISH SANDWICH




Joined: 22 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lol, this looks like a trainwreck waiting to happen.

just a matter of time until ronin shows up...

/me watches.

EDIT: the earths older than 10,000 years, for oviouse reasons.
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Bagne
ALL YOUR NUDIBRANCH ARE BELONG TO GASTROPODA




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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll mention two thoughts of mine:

1) The following issue is bound to crop up, so I'm just going to say it now:
Even if scientists succeed in explaining every detail of life's origins and evolution according to natural phenomena, this (in my eyes) does not eliminate the possibility of God's existence. Rather, it affirms to me that civilization, humanity, and life are hard wired into the universe's physical laws - which (as many are inclined to believe) God created.
Religion can(!) coexist with mainstream science.

So yeah, I'm a believer in both mainstream science (i.e. evolution) and God. Heck - evolution is so amazing and interesting, it alone is often sufficient to make me believe in God.

2) @AJHunter:
There are many scientific theories of life's origins, some are speculative, and no scientific consensus yet exists. However, all of these theories attempt to overcome the statistical problems you have quoted. None these theories describe the sudden assemblage of a lucky bacteria cell (as your post might be interpreted to suggest). As you have argued, such an event would be very unlikely, and scientists would agree.
Instead, these theories try to describe life's initial stages according to simple chemical reactions which developed a mechanism of heritability, and therefore allowed evolution to commence.
For example, one version of the "RNA world" theory posits that RNA structures functioned both as genes and enzymes (before proteins existed).
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Spoon Weaver




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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AJHunter: You're a moron. The earth IS, for a fact, more then 10,000 years old.
If you want to believe in God, then fine, go ahead. However, trying to prove God exists by spouting off poorly formed "scientific" theories defeats the key factor of the church people belief system. Faith. There is no proof God exist, and there never will be. You either have faith he exist, or don't.

Also, God doesn't exist. Sayings that no one knows how humans came to exist so it must have been some really really old guy, is dumb.
The bible is just a book about a really old jewish king. ( turns out they used to call themselves Gods ) This king was eventually killed by the Romans, and after the romans found his son, they killed him too. The End.
Read the bible sometime, it's almost as good as harry potter.
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Moogle1
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spoon Weaver wrote:
( turns out they used to call themselves Gods )


You lost me here. This is not indicated or suggested in any way by actual history, much less the Bible itself.

The rest of your explanation makes even less sense, since the vast majority of the Bible predates the Romans.
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Spoon Weaver




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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's commonly known that the Egyptians used to refer to their leaders as gods. How far fetched is it to assume that a nearby leader would do the same?

And the Romans conquered the Israel area around 1BC-1AD. I'm proposing that they killed the current ruler there and Jesus was the prince that survive. Thus, "the son of our lord", "king of the jews".

I attended catholic school for most of my educational career and this is basically what I came up with to make since of the bible. Just seemed to make more since then something like, Some guy created everything. He was all good and all right. He rained fire down on some cities because of their high crime rate, and demanded that people killed the animals he created because it pleased him. He then magically impregnated some girl. We killed god's baby. This humbled god and now he's a lot nicer.
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Baconlabs
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey! At this point in time, the votes are split half-and-half! Neato.

I like to play the ignorance card on this one, in that by ignoring God, Gods, and religion entirely, I don't have to worry about it! (It's certainly freed up my Sundays.)
It's kind of like shutting your eyes and spouting gibberish in a dark room to make any monsters or ghosts go away. Wait, hang on. I forgot where I was going with this.
                                                                                                                                                                
Well, anyway.
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Moogle1
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spoon Weaver wrote:
It's commonly known that the Egyptians used to refer to their leaders as gods. How far fetched is it to assume that a nearby leader would do the same?


That's a huge stretch, given actual Jewish history, and it's completely unfounded by the Bible. Moreover, the time period you're talking about is around 1000 BC.

Quote:
And the Romans conquered the Israel area around 1BC-1AD.


Try 63 BC. For nearly a century, they had no independent kings -- it was illegal under Roman law. Then (according to the Bible), around 32 AD, Jesus was arrested on false charges of sedition and executed despite being acquitted.

Your previous post suggests that all of your personal fiction can be found in the Bible. If you choose not to believe the Bible, that's certainly your prerogative, but don't act pretentious because you claim to have read it, and don't lie about what it actually does say.

The OP may be completely misguided too, but at least he's misguided based on something he actually read and not something he invented out of whole cloth.
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Bob the Hamster
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AJHunter wrote:
I believe God exists, because humans exist. Without God, humans couldn't have formed, even in the trillion years the universe has supposedly been around. The odds of even just our DNA forming randomly in a way that works and works well are 1 in 4.80 x 10^50.


That estimate assumes that the universe is completely random. it is not.

AJHunter wrote:
I believe that the Earth is 10,000 years old, tops. That's years of 365.25 days, and days of 86,400 seconds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day) Thats 24 hours.


I was raised Christian, and I love Jesus, but the part in Genesis where it says that God created the earth in seven days, the word "days" is a translation of the ancient hebrew word for "interval-of-time".

God doesn't require you to believe that the earth is 10000 years old. It is not a sin to believe in evolution.

I don't like the phrase "intelligent design" because I think it is politically loaded and misleading, but if you, as a believer in God, take the time to study how evolution actually works, you will experience a wonderful feeling of awe at something so spectacularly beautiful as the natural evolution of living things.
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Bagne
ALL YOUR NUDIBRANCH ARE BELONG TO GASTROPODA




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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ James: Hooray! Harmony of Science and Religion!

@ Anyone:
I often ask myself - if religion truly is divinely inspired, if human civilization is being educated throughout history by a divine source, what would the teachings of the past look like?

I mean, if I wanted to take ... I don't know, Aristotle ... and explain to him that there's an underlying power behind all of creation, that moral knowledge gives us moral responsibility, that religious teachings provides a path to good living ... what would I tell him?

Well, I think the story of the Bible's garden of Eden makes for a good start.
I most certainly would not start explaining particle physics, and expound on the Big Bang theory - that would completely miss the point, and he probably wouldn't understand it anyways.
Besides, the Garden of Eden isn't that far from the scientific story, is it?
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msw188




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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Come on guys, at least in my silly debate thread we had a chance to learn some world history!

Seems to me that if you want science to work out, you have to believe that the universe is essentially rational. That is to say, if you want experiments to produce predictable results, you have to assume that the universe doesn't behave entirely randomly. The easiest way to do this is to ask "why not" and give God as an answer. I believe that the majority of serious scientists past and present believe in some kind of omniscient power. The more you come to know just how finely balanced certain things are in the universe, the easier it is to believe in something making it that way.

I think I'll hold off on any more for the present.
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FyreWulff
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe that the Bible does have some good messages in it, but people keep forgetting that it was written by humans and is mostly half historical-account of events that happened (ie, we do know that a big flood occured) mixed with 'legends' for filler. And the fact that they keep assuming that every word is literal in there.

For example, Moses couldn't have been in the desert for 40 years. The translation has been taken literally, when the original word just sounded like 40. Kinda of like how we have the word 'several', but it does not literally mean 'seven', it just means 'a lot'. Or the word "few", which people generally equate to five, does not literally mean five. The original word just meant they spent a lot of time out there.

I pretty much interpret Genesis as a gigantic metaphor, not the literal beginning of man.
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Bob the Hamster
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A strictly literal interpretation of the Bible is kinda ironic. Consider Jesus's teachings; He was constantly telling parables to illustrate various moral points.

A literalist interpretation of a religion devoted to a savior who taught people using metaphors.... who would have expected it!? :)
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Moogle1
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FyreWulff wrote:
For example, Moses couldn't have been in the desert for 40 years.


I understand what you're trying to say with the rest of the paragraph, and I'm not trying to say that it was trying to say 40 years, but once you buy into THE LORD GOD sending them food from heaven and Moses bringing forth water from a rock, it's hard to say that he couldn't have been in the desert for 40 years.

A lot of Biblical debate is splitting hairs about scientific possibility when the core message is about someone coming back from the dead.
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