Castle Paradox

[SDHawk]

Simply put, giving it a 10 on music when you know it's ripped is too high, even if it's well-placed and he mostly avoided the too-used songs. To put it into perspective, would you give a game with all ripped graphics a 10 on graphics even if they're placed well? Placement is only half the quality of something, the actual thing accounts for the other half. And frankly, if you didn't make it you don't deserve the points for the actual thing.

It's allmost an insult to composers and music in general. "Original music dosen't matter, you can still get a perfect for it when you didn't make any of it."

I think you're letting your liking of the rest of the game influnce rating each individual part far too much, even if that part has problems. This is not an attack on either of you (I for one also really liked the game and I hope Adrian continues it and either gets a composer or learns to do it himself), but that music score is just too high.
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"Why is it when they say an adult has the mind of a Sew, they lock him up, while Sews are allowed to run free in the streets."

[Fenrir-Lunaris]

Considering 99% of the OHR community can't compose their own music for whatever reasons, at least placing it well should be the standard we're seeking. At least the victory theme is not a slow balad, and the death music certainly doesn't conjure up the images of clowns. And at least we're not hearing FF6's battle music over and over.

As far as ripping graphics goes, there's an unspoken rule that if you must rip, do it well. Most of the time, we don't ever see good rip jobs, but there are a few exceptions. Besides, people have given FFH a 10 on graphics and the majority of them are all ripped. Bottom line, it doesn't matter how big your tool, it's how you use it that matters.

That and the first 10 minutes of this game are simply a plotscripting nightmare. Just moving heroes around along with textboxes is difficult enough for me. Plotscripting genius I ain't.

[Shadowiii]

<warning: I go off on a tangent. I am writing an article on graphical ripping and...yeah, I'm in that mood. You have been warned >

Regarding that score...

I agree, it didn't deserve a 10, and I apologize if it offended you. I certainly did not mean any attack on musicians and those who use original music or compose music (heck, I compose every now and then ) Giving it a 10 in music was, yes, a major bias and it probably deserved around a 6-8. However, if I may make a point here.

I personally regard graphical ripping a greater sin then music ripping (though music ripping CAN be worse, just wait a moment). Graphics are easier to make in the OHR engine and, though it requires a great deal of skill to make good ones, any moron can make decent graphics (I am living proof of this, considering that I can't draw a FACE worth beans, and I have been artistically challenged my entire life; ask anyone who knows me). Music composition, on the other hand, is quite difficult in contrast. I can hardly figure out that bam-writing program James made, and I have been playing piano for over 12 years. Also, though I can play, I can't compose very well either. Music composition is much more dififcult then graphical creation. Though I will admit that original midis are quite easy to find on the internet (including ones that the author will share; I have found literally hundreds), it still is a "lesser sin" so to speak.

Graphic ripping is bad. I have taken a personal oath never to give a game with ripped graphics over a 9.0. Even if graphics are ripped well, they still are ripped. Of course, all ripping in general isn't bad. Say you are testing out the OHR system. Feel free to rip, plunder, do whatever to figure out how to make a good game. But ripping graphics isn't an excuse if you are able to draw good graphics. Though I hate to diss Fenrir (sorry in advance), he is an example of this. We've all seen Fenrir's original graphics; they are downright gorgeous. Yet he still ripped in his old games. In all honesty, I'm not going to hold him accountable for this because they ARE old games, and since he HAS been making games with original graphics, that is beside the point. It is just, graphical ripping is just a way out for the lazy, and it is a horrible way out.

Urg, wandered off the path...back to music...

Again, regarding that score, I suppose you could say I was completely immersed in loving that game. I mean, it has everything I've longed for in OHR games. Original, good graphics. An interesting battle system. PLACED MUSIC (a biggie for me). Enjoyable characters and neat dialogue. For the first time in YEARS I didn't feel like I was playing an OHR game, I felt like I was playing an actual, commercial game. I don't know if you understand, but for me this is like a light at the end of a dark tunnel. I haven't felt this good since playing EOTE2. I've wandered through games with ripped graphics, shoddy storylines, crappy gameplay, on and on. Even games I gave A+'s to in the past had errors some place or another that made the game scream "OHR! UNPOLISHED!" After sifting through (and writing reviews for) 24 games that really didn't make me feel good, I finally found a game that made me forget I was playing a shallow OHR game. I honestly could very easily go down that entire list of games that I have reviewed thus far, and tell you EXACTLY where my mndset snapped from "professional" to "ohr." To be honest, I haven't enjoyed it one bit. Sure, I love writing reviews, but every time I write one for a bad game, after having played and beaten that bad game, it still hurts. It was different last night. When I was playing Crescent Dream I was completely immersed, and I loved it.

So yes, my vote in music was definatly biased. I had no intention whatsoever to insult anyone (on the contrary, I was hoping the praise would inspire game designers to place music and think out their music better, thus rendering a higher score when their game was released), especially not musical composers. (on a side note, have you read my article? it is in the second issue of OHR Weekly) I certainly do not think ripping is better then original compositions, far from it. If that is your interpretation from my review I can safely say that you interpreted incorrectly. I meant no harm.

Inner Shadow: Harummph, first Mormon Mission, now this. Seems that people would rather have C+'s then A+'s. There are plenty of mundane reviews to read, if you love them so much, go read them.
Shadowii: Hush up, you.

And, in conclusion, if you don't like my review: write your own. And, if you want, feel free to bash my review's opinions to your heart's content. That's why it is a community. If you don't like any of my reviews, feel free to write your own.

*Sigh* And I have a headache. Gonna go grab some Advil.
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But enough talk, have at you!

[Fenrir-Lunaris]

I now have my material for the 4th comic in OHR weekly. Thanks for the inspiration, Shadowiii.

And no, you're not going to be the butt of this next week's comic, I'm not that cruel.

[Chaos Nyte]

"Music composition is much more dififcult then graphical creation. "

Maybe for you. I know plenty of composers who think graphics are the most diffucult thing in the world, and in fact, I know plenty of writers who think both music and graphics are WAY out of their league. (In fact, most newbies think this...) Face it Shadow, you're letting your personal bias get in the way of the fact that if you just sat down and messed with NOTATE or a midi composer for a day, you'd have a much greater understanding of how to create music, and know it was far from the nigh impossible level you've labeled it as. Heck, I bet if you devoted yourself for a week to writing just one song, your opinion on the matter would change entirely.

[Shadowiii]

I have, and it may be just my ineptness (is that a word? Eh.) with the program, or the fact that I cannont manuver in dos, but I can't seem to figure that dumb thing out.

Though I dare say that you are pretty quick to judge, considering you don't know my graphical development past. It took me YEARS to achieve the level in CGlobe, and it still feels like pulling teeth everytime I pixelate. Again, it could be the fact that I'm not an artist, or something else. And while graphical design has been difficult, composition has been FAR more strenuious. Hence my bias.

Anyway, here is my opinion on my CD reviews, clean and simple without all the fruity crap:

1. Music placement is something I rarely see in OHR games, thus games WITH it tend to seem more "professional" in my eyes.
2. Not all the songs in CD were ripped, only a few. If there were more, I didn't recognize them, so my position as a reviewer was unchanged.
3. Whether or not music writing is more difficult then graphics drawing isn't the point of this. The point is in MY OPINION and thus in my REVIEWING OPINION, I will generally have a bais from my point of view: that graphics are easier then music. Again, if you dislike my bais, I am sorry, but I'm not a robot who reviews games solely on content.

So yeah. If it makes you happy, I'll take more consideration in my next review regarding music Though considering the recent batch of OHR games, I'd be suprised if the score is over 5. Sounds good?
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But enough talk, have at you!

[Mr B]

Woah, CN. You don't know what Shadowiii can do in real life. I've heard some of his piano compositions -- they're exquisite.

I agree when he says that music composition is more difficult that graphical creation. So it's not 100% true 100% of the time. But it seems to be a general rule.

I think that, for myself, music creation is difficult for a couple of reasons. Mainly, I just don't have a good understanding of the mathematics of sound. From what I've seen of music, I have to understand it pretty well to be able to write something in anything other than C major (really, you should hear what I try to do sometimes).

Graphics, on the other hand, don't seem to require quite as much knowledge to get something 'workable.' True, it can stink, but everyone will recognize a stick figure.

So basically, a misplaced D# damages a piece of music significantly more a misplaced pixel. I don't know why; it just seems that way. Music is harder.

[Iblis]

Personally I think graphics are a simpler skill than music. My reasoning is that graphics are based on something concrete (as in, when you draw a sprite of a human you are doing so with the knowledge of what a human looks like), whereas music is much more abstract. Sure, you can listen to a battle theme and try and pattern yours after that, but it's not quite the same, because in this case you want the end result to not sound to much like it (so you don't get accused of ripping someone off). However in the case of graphics you want it to look as much like what it's supposed to be as possible.

I dunno if that made any sense, but oh well.

(note: I readily admit that my skills lie in graphics, and not in music, so I'm a little biased.)
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Locked
OHR Piano

[Mr B]

[Sparoku]

I'm gonna have to agree with Shadowiii. I'm better with graphics than music composition. (Although I think nearly everyone else is too )
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"There will always be people who will tell you they hate what you made, or like what you made, and will tell you that what you did was wrong or right."
My Discord ID: SparDanger#0305

[Rolling Stone]

What would Grand Theft Auto Vice City be without ripped music? What about Powerstick Man? What about I Made Dis? What about any Quentin Tarantino movie at all? What about Dance Dance Revolution? What about any Martin Scorsese movie at all? What about etcetera etcetera. The music deserves a score for how good it is and how well it is used, not whether the author wrote it. The "Only orignal music gets a ten" rule would give me smashing the keyboard going BLING BLANG DONG DING! a higher score than if I'd used the Rolling Stones and Mozart. I Made Dis would have been a piece of shit without a Rolling Stones and Led Zeppelin made soundtrack. I could have written decent original music, but the point of the soundtrack was to draw upon preexisting music and take advantage of how it makes people feel. So I play Paint it Black while Crocodile Dundee commits multiple homicide. It wouldn't have worked with original music, even if I had the Rolling Stones themselves write it for me!

As for ripping graphics, half the cutscenes in the Wlalthros games are hilariously ripped. Half the graphics in FFH are ripped, and that's how it retains a true Final Fantasy feel to it.

It's not about laziness or lack of skill. Fenrir's original graphics are BETTER than his ripped graphics! I can draw new GFX faster than I can rip old ones! Open up your brainholes people, judge the quality of the game, the soundtrack, the graphics WITHOUT BIAS! If a game rips graphics poorly because the artist was lazy and incompetent, then mark'em down. If FFH rips graphics because it wants to look like Final Fantasy, MARK IT UP!
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BANDIT REVOLVER, DOWNLOAD IT OR ELSE.

http://www.castleparadox.com/forum/gamelist-display.php?game=620

[Shadowiii]

Even though this thread was rotting, Gil brings up a good point. Using ripped music in a game isn't nearly as henius a sin as using ripped graphics.

Why I consider ripping graphics to be the greater "sin" is evident: commercial games "rip" songs. They take original songs and edit them (DDR). However, you never see professional games rip graphics (unless they are a next in the series, such as the nintendo FF games).

I agree with Gil on the FFH thing, but only to a degree. Fen's style is very Final Fantasyish. In truth, if he had done all the graphics original but of Final Fantasy monsters (which would've taken forever, I know. I hate drawing graphics ) it would have been a far superior game, to say the least. I mean, he uses FF enemies in TSSE and they are downright beautiful.

So...yeah. Though I do want to put that grade down still, simply because he ripped from FF games instead of picking some more vauge sources (example: Trailblazers has 99% ripped music (the only original song is the death theme), but it is difficult to pick up which games these are from).
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But enough talk, have at you!

[RedMaverickZero]

And some games can require the use of ripped music too. Because of cameos and such. Like secret boss fights. But I think ripped music isn't entirely bad because like you people have said, 99% don't know how to make music. Heck, I can't even hear the music anymore so I can't really say anything but still.
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---------------Projects----
Mr.Triangle's Maze: 70%
Takoyaki Surprise: 70%

[Flamer]

i agree with CN's statement...
i find graphics easy in some ways, but hard and tedious in most other ways.
i haven't tried notate, but getting the right tune for a song isn't that diffcult when you just lay the music out on a spreadsheet or some and think about it.

i lay things out with my graphics as well, which makes the job much more easier.
i do this with scripting large scenes or projects, write a pseudo code what i want it to do. lay it out so it makes logical sense, then start from the beginning in smaller steps.
i've composed a couple of songs, but haven't tried to make them yet with anything.

if you think about it, it's not too hard to do something.
of course, i have a nack for using my instincts than my head, so natural talent helps me a lot in scripting and graphics, maybe it'll help me with music when i get round to doing some composition in the coming semester break
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If we were a pack of dogs, IM would be a grand Hound, CN would be a very ficious little pitball, and Giz...well, it doesn't matter breed he is, he'd still be a bitch
(no offense to anyone that was mentioned)

[Kenji Murasame]

Gah! It's BAM music guys. BAM! We aren't ripping exactly, it's converted into basic GARBLE.

And here's a matter of fact; Most of us can't write music; WE CAN'T WRITE MUSIC. There are a few people who can that we can hire; yeh; but every single person I've ever hired has been a total flake. There isn't enough of a musician-to-artist ratio here. I'm not going to wait 20 years for a musician to get his act together and score my game, as much as I'd love to.

Further into THE POINT; Ripping Bams is way harder to do than most people appreciate; I usually have to spend half my time just ripping the stupid music, it's not like it's EASY to rip music okay? Therefore; I think any game that uses ripped music and actually sounds good, and scores it well (this is half of what music is about) should get at least SOME credit for it. It's hard to get those midis to convert into something resembling music in bam. it is very hard indeed! We rip the engine because we can't program our own, so ripping music isn't too much worse; At least we aren't using RM2K and using pre-made everything!

Yes, and ripping graphics is hard to do too; probably slower than drawing OHR, also taking into account SNES games don't use the same palette, it's going to look off. Anyway, if you rip anything; it's a compromise in quality, and you shouldn't get a 10 for ripped anythings; But let's just cut people some slack with ripping music here, and continue to scorn them for ripping graphics. Because this just reflects the reality!