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Uncommon
His legend will never die
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 2503
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 Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:41 am Post subject: Leroy's Locked review |
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This is a crime against game design.
| the atrocity in question wrote: | | This would be more considered a demo, though. There is no real story to back it up, but it does a good job of presenting a game which is completely constructed of side quests. |
I'd like to be the first to congradulate you for missing the fucking point. You kids need to learn that story has absolutely nothing to do with game design.
To call this "a game which is completely constructed of side quests" is just so wrong. A "side quest" is, by it's very nature, to the side. Something cannot be completely made of side quests because if they're the main focus then they can't be to the side. But that's just arguing semantics.
Thr real crime in those last two sentences is that they completely miss the point of the game's purpose, the statement behind which, taken from Gilbert, you actually put at the top of your review! | Gilbert wrote: | | It only takes a couple days to make a great game, enough of these year long production periods, start putting games on the list! Also, you've nothing to lose and nothing to fear, don't worry about your games appealing to anyone, OHR is supposed to be the experimental cult level of game design, the digital beatniks, do things that Square/Enix, Nintendo, Sega and Capcom would never try in a million years. Remember also that a game doesn't have to be fun, but it should never be boring on accident. |
Telling a story should never ever ever EVER be the purpose of a game! And it most especially isn't the purpose of this game.
There is nothing that makes Locked a demo. It is a complete game and has everything it needs to be a game. It's whole purpose was to just--be--a game!
Again, congratulations. You have no grasp of the idea behind game design. |
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Moogle1
Scourge of the Seas
Halloween 2006 Creativity Winner
Joined: 15 Jul 2004
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Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 11:18 am Post subject: |
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Harsh... but true.
Even if I'll argue that "Locked" offered little in the way of gameplay, it has no side quests nor does it purport to be a demo. It is very design-centric, with little to distract from its core design purpose.
So many amateur games (and too many professional ones) have no purpose. "Locked" was a deliberate game. It knew what it wanted to do and it did it.
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The Drizzle
Who is the Drizzle?
Joined: 12 Nov 2003
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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Besides, there is a story there. There's someone locked in a house and they can't get out. "No real story." That's crap.
EDIT: Also, how could the music be well placed? There was one song! There isn't really much placement going into that. A good choice you could say, but well placed is probably a bad description of what went on there. That's a different story anyway.
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Iblis
Ghost Cat
Joined: 26 May 2003
Posts: 1233
Location: Your brain
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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Regarding a few points from Leroy's review:
| Quote: | | a little girl is trapped inside a house |
I never thought of her as a little girl, myself. But with this style of graphics it's not so easy to show age (not for me at least). I can see why you might've thought that though.
Actually, I remember now thinking that she looked like a little girl when you compared her size to the stuff around her. If I had been less lazy I probably would've scaled down some of the furniture.
| Quote: | | If I had known the objective (no spoilers, sorry), it would have been an entirely different and less enjoyable experience for me. |
Wait, what? The objective is clearly explained in the game entry.
| Quote: | | This would be more considered a demo, though. |
Like Unc mentioned, this really doesn't make much sense. A demo is unfinished. Locked has a beginning and an end. I do not intend to add anything to it. It is in every sense a complete game.
Also, why was one screenshot good and the other full of noise? Really, this game only has 10 colors in it (excluding the menu). If whatever program you use can't handle that then you might want to get a new one.
Now, regarding this thread:
| Quote: | | You kids need to learn that story has absolutely nothing to do with game design. |
This is only true if you don't know how to use the story to help achieve the purpose of your game. Anything the designer puts in the game consciously, as something they intend to express the point of the game more strongly, is game design. You might not think about game design when you're writing the story or drawing the graphics or selecting the music, but that doesn't mean they aren't game design. It just means you're choosing to ignore the design aspects of those things.
| Quote: | | "Locked" was a deliberate game. It knew what it wanted to do and it did it. |
It is amusing that you liked the game less than Leroy did and yet you still give it much higher praise.
| Quote: | | Besides, there is a story there. There's someone locked in a house and they can't get out. "No real story." That's crap. |
I'm sure that what Leroy meant was that there isn't any backstory. You don't know who she is or why the house is locked up or why the various stuff is hidden.
In case anyone is curious, I didn't ever have any clear backstory in mind when I made the game.
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Uncommon
His legend will never die
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 2503
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Well, yes, story can be a part of a game's design, but it's rarely the center of it, and usually shouldn't be. Story should be a slave to the purpose of the game. And backstory, in terms of Locked, is irrelevant. |
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Iblis
Ghost Cat
Joined: 26 May 2003
Posts: 1233
Location: Your brain
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Well, yes, story can be a part of a game's design, but it's rarely the center of it, and usually shouldn't be. Story should be a slave to the purpose of the game. |
Quite true on all points. However, none of this is exclusive to story. Ideally every element of the game should be a slave to the purpose.
More on topic, yeah, I didn't see any reason to incorporate a backstory. It would've just blurred the focus and added some useless fat to the game.
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The Drizzle
Who is the Drizzle?
Joined: 12 Nov 2003
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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Really though, I can think of a million games that have no story whatsoever. Tic-Tac-Toe, Marbles, jacks, checkers, the list goes on. There are tons of storyless card games. No one even thinks of story until it comes to the game being on a computer. Games are about overcoming obstacles and having fun in the process (on a very base level).
BTW, another game that doesn't set up a backstory. Super Mario. How did this plumber get into this strange land with a big dragon and a hot chick? Honestly, who cares.
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Iblis
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Games are about overcoming obstacles and having fun in the process (on a very base level). |
I disagree. Games, like any kind of art, are about two things:
1) Being in some way valuable to the creator, either in the process of creation or in the end product.
2) Creating a valuable (not necessarily enjoyable) experience for the audience.
Saying that all games have to be fun is like saying that all movies have to be comedies or that all paintings have to be realistic. It only limits the potential of the art to say that it has to be one particular thing. There's certainly nothing wrong with games being fun, or having obstacles to overcome, but it's very shallow to confine all game design to those two things.
Heh, it's funny, I remember being on the opposite side of this argument once.
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The Drizzle
Who is the Drizzle?
Joined: 12 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I disagree. Games, like any kind of art, are about two things:
1) Being in some way valuable to the creator, either in the process of creation or in the end product.
2) Creating a valuable (not necessarily enjoyable) experience for the audience. |
Neither of these is always true. The first is not necessarily true. I'm sure there are plenty of games where the creator doesn't find value in its creation. A lot of people do it for a living and may not necessarily find any value (other than monetary) in the creation.
Even if ALL game creators find it valuable, but I hardly think it matters. Take tag for example. Do you think that tag is about the creator of the game? God no. Tag is about having some fun and healthy competition.
The second statement is FAR to specific to say "This is what games are about." You could just as easily say games are about getting to know yourself. You could say that about a million things, and it may be true of games in a lot of cases, but is that really the point of games?
I know not all games are fun, but show me a game that wasn't meant to entertain. I can't think of one off the top of my head, but then again, I'm not thinking that hard. And show me a game where obstacles aren't overcome. I'm thinking of games on their most base level. When you get right down to the bare bones, a game is about entertainment and competition.
EDIT: I also don't think game making is an art. There is art involved in some cases. But not all. Again, tag. Where's the art? You could say, I suppose, that the act of creating it is an art, but I'd disagree with that too.
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Sephyroth
Renegade Rebel Redmage
Class A Minstrel
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Posts: 644
Location: Schmocation
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | EDIT: I also don't think game making is an art. There is art involved in some cases. But not all. Again, tag. Where's the art? You could say, I suppose, that the act of creating it is an art, but I'd disagree with that too. |
Heh, I remember making a point long ago about tag as well. The counterpoint is that you can't really call tag a game. There's no ultimate objective. Tag could go on and on until some superviser ends it, and in the end there is no clear winner or loser.
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Iblis
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I'm sure there are plenty of games where the creator doesn't find value in its creation. |
I meant those two things to be "what art should ideally do" not "what all art invariably does." Given that we were already talking about ideals I thought this would be pretty clear.
| Quote: | | The second statement is FAR to specific to say "This is what games are about." |
What? Giving a valuable experience is too specific? No, that's a pretty broad definition. Much broader than "fun and obstacles."
| Quote: | | You could just as easily say games are about getting to know yourself. |
First, this is infinitely more specific than my statement. Second, getting to know yourself is always a valuable experience, so this falls under my definition anyway.
| Quote: | | show me a game that wasn't meant to entertain. |
What does this have to do with anything? What I'm saying is that games do not necessarily have to be entertaining. This has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not games currently being produced are made to be entertaining.
"Games don't necessarily have to entertain" != "Games are not always made to entertain"
| Quote: | | I also don't think game making is an art. |
Why not? Could you explain your definition of art?
| Quote: | | There is art involved in some cases. But not all. |
I never claimed that every game succeeds at being art.
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The Drizzle
Who is the Drizzle?
Joined: 12 Nov 2003
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Heh, I remember making a point long ago about tag as well. The counterpoint is that you can't really call tag a game. There's no ultimate objective. Tag could go on and on until some superviser ends it, and in the end there is no clear winner or loser. |
TAG IS A GAME, DAMN YOU! Even if you don't consider it one, there are plenty of other games I could've used that support my opinion. Also, I never said games are about winning or losing, because they're not. But there needs to be some kind of competition.
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Uncommon
His legend will never die
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| The Drizzle wrote: | | ...show me a game that wasn't meant to entertain |
PAIN AND SUFFERING.
I designed that game just to be a pain, not a source of entertainment.
And we're talking game design here, not game making. One is an artform, the other is a verb related to that artform. Game making isn't an art, it's a process, to to say that a game is not a work of art is an ignorant statement. Art is determined by the motive and mindset behind the process. We are all artists and I find your dissagreement of that fact rather insulting. |
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Moogle1
Scourge of the Seas
Halloween 2006 Creativity Winner
Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 3377
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Iblis wrote: |
| Quote: | | "Locked" was a deliberate game. It knew what it wanted to do and it did it. |
It is amusing that you liked the game less than Leroy did and yet you still give it much higher praise. |
*shrug* It depends on your definition of praise. I think it's a very focused, pure game. I don't care for the gameplay, as I said.
That's a mixed bag, but the same could be said of SCHMP, depending on your point of view. Take it however you will.
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The Drizzle
Who is the Drizzle?
Joined: 12 Nov 2003
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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Whoops, missed Iblis' response on that.
This has gone way off topic but...
| Iblis wrote: | | I never claimed that every game succeeds at being art. |
I know, but you mentioned art, and it reminded me that a lot of people say that making games is an art.
Also, I don't think that games are about getting to know yourself. They could be, hell every game could be, but that's not what games are "about." I was just saying, you could argue that games are about anything.
| Quote: | | What I'm saying is that games do not necessarily have to be entertaining. This has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not games currently being produced are made to be entertaining. |
Games are supposed to be entertaining. But the point of even a boring game is to be entertaining. It could fail at this. There's no game that everyone finds to be fun.
| Uncommon wrote: | | to say that a game is not a work of art is an ignorant statement. |
To tell someone else that they are ignorant of what art is, that is ignorant. My statement was one of opinion. Art is undefinable. Everyone's opinion differs on what is. Tic-tac-toe is a game, and, at least to me, the creation of tic-tac-toe was not a work of art. Not every creative process yields art. I'm not saying that games are incapable of being art, I'm saying that games are not always art.
And I don't think that Pain and Suffering was exactly a source of "pain." If you meant it to cause pain, then that game went in a different direction than your intent. If you were trying to make a source of pain and suffering for the player, then I argue that you weren't trying to make a game, you were trying to make a tool for pain and suffering. At worst, the game was annoying. And lots of games can be annoying, like logic games and what not. But we still voluntarily subject ourselves to them because they entertain us (though they can fail at this).
And game making, in the context that we've been using it in, is a noun not a verb. Still I get what you're saying though I disagree. Art is often interpreted entirely differently from the intent of the artist. It isn't necessarily determined by the motive and mindset of the artist.
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