Castle Paradox

[Rinku]

It's a unique looking game, but coffee with a slice of pizza in it is a unique beverage too. If the only point of making something was to make a unique something, it'd be pretty easy, you could just use a random number generator.

I think it's okay to use commercial games as a standard. Standard would have no meaning if there were one standard for hobbyists and another standard for professionals. Plenty of commercial games were made by one person and have much better graphics than any Ohrrpgce game; Out of This World for instance. I understand that not everyone takes game-making as seriously as the professionals do, but you can still use them as a standard, just as amateur chess players still use the same rating system that professional chess players do as a standard.

But back to FUABMX: I found some old screenshots that I made of the game in Ohr monthly, so I thought I'd post them here:













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Tower Defense Game

[The Wobbler]

[Camdog]

Rinku: I'm not sure I understand your defense of FUaBMX. Are you seriously suggesting that all games are entertaining no matter what, and therefore presentation is the only thing that matters? I mean, different strokes for different folks, sure, but that seems a little extreme to me.

And, a question to all: Our discussion so far has revolved around the graphics, which were great no doubt, but does anyone want to stick up for the gameplay? I've made my case for that, but how about some other opinions? For example, I thought the idea of being able to use magical equipment to learn new spells or equip it to boost stats was an interesting one, but in the end the choices were too limited early in the game to make me want to slog through the extreme difficulty. Anyone's experience different than that?

And, to discuss game design in general, how important is presentation compared to gameplay? I'd say they're both extremely important, as presentation is in some ways gameplay (a terrible presentation will certainly hinder gameplay). However, I think mediocre presentation and gameplay is much more acceptable than mediocre gameplay wrapped around a great presentation.

[Charbile]

From what I remember... The graphics were okay, for some odd reason several random people stole white owl's walkabout graphical style which he didn't seem to mind. Too blob-y for me, but easy on the eyes.

I never really made it far in any of the versions. I would usually stop after the first boss encounter. The games required too much leveling up to advance in relation to the area and plot covered. I remember in one you had to walk back and forth a lot in a basement to level up enough to take on a big rat. Not sensical game design.

In v4, I don't think I made it past the bar fight, which was annoying. I tried a few times and even tried leaving town and skipping ahead, but the overworlds always had an unfinished feel, along with:

The game never felt like it was going anywhere, which is why I believe he redid it so often. He had 2 developed characters he seemed fond of and some empire and some rpg action and that's it. Notice he went for the ohr cafe first thing and the bar locale / fight and all those classic rpg things which one finds memoriable and tucked away well into the game.

It also had those often mocked rpg & ohr instances of 'where do i go next'. So many doors and halls--all unmarked, and you had to find one with some council after first talking to someone hiding somewhere else to advance;alsd fj i don't remember exactly.

Design BEFORE throwing pretty graphics together into some sort of game-- is the essential idea I remember about it. All dressed up and pretty with nowhere to go, such a shame.

[Rinku]

[Onlyoneinall]

I would only go so far as to say that holds true for the general audience, who are mostly teenage males who you can draw in as long as it has good presentation, even if the gameplay is shit. What Rinku is saying shouldn't apply to people like us, who design indie games and (most of us) try to create a game that is entertaining and well done in many aspects, or flawed but done well overall so that it is not a mindless slash and hack piece of crap, like say Dynasty Warriors.

Rinku's philosophy of "if the game looks good, then it must be good!" applies to games like Golden Sun. Yeah it looks nice, but the storyline and dialouge is such a horrid mess, I refuse to touch it because I don't want to kill off my brain cells. Advance Wars has awesome gameplay, but again the dialouge kills it, forcing you to ignore the shitty story and focusing hard on strategy. Dynasty Warriors, as mentioned before is the same thing all the way up to whichever number it's at (5 I believe), including its Empire and Warrior editions. Slash and hack with shit dialouge and dubbing, the same thing over and over.

But hey, the game sure LOOKS good! Who cares if all you're doing is mashing the X button, listening to a Chinese guy with a European voice say "Darn! You killed my brother! I'll get you, you no good scum!" without emotion, and swipe out thousands of brainless soldiers who stand there and do nothing? They at least presented it well enough with their PS2 quality graphics, so what does it matter?

I think Rinku should videotape himself watching a washing machine tumble for 2 hours and have the camera angled towards his face so we can see him staring at it with enthusiasm. To say good presentation is all that matters or is what is important doesn't slide here as well as it would in the GameFAQs community. :/
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http://www.castleparadox.com/gamelist-display.php?game=750 Bloodlust Demo 1.00

[Newbie_Power]

I always thought that Golden Sun and the Lost Age had extremely overrated graphics. Pre-rendered sprites is a turn-off for me. The pre-rendered tiles looked great, however, since that is a much better application for pre-rendered images.

And I do agree that the characters did not have much depth to them. I went as far as to decide that Golden Sun was not a game for someone that wanted a good story, it was more for someone that likes to geek out and learn many details about the world itself and the situation that is going on and psyenergy mechanics rather than watching actual character development unfold.

Looking at those screenshots of Fantasy Under a Blue Moon X, they really hurt my eyes because the contrast and brightness is really too much. I am not a professional artist, but I feel like FUaBMX could use less shades in some areas depending on the object/scenery. Some things could also pay more attention to light source and consistency. Look at the stone tiles in the 3rd screenshot, and check out the door on the airplane that really stands out.

That is just me. I think I have an anti-affinity with unnatural looking graphics, I guess.

Oh, and another comment I should make after skimming through the thread, this is something I learned from Tsugumo's Pixel Art tutorial:

"Graphics are one of the most important parts of your game. It sets most of the mood for the player that music cannot do alone. Also, graphics are going to be the first thing a person looks at when they look at the back of the box. If they see a game that is just a bunch of stickfigures, even if it has excellent gameplay, they are not going to think it does. Graphics are going to draw people into the game, and the gameplay is going to keep them there."

EDIT: Oh! And I actually thought of a counter-argument in case anybody wants to be smart. For games that are remakes or direct ports, the case still holds true that graphics will draw the player into buying the game if the graphics show accuracy. Someone can buy a classic arcade game package because the boxart on the back will draw the player, because those old-school graphics will tell the player that they are going to get Pac-Man, and no other game that tries to resemble Pac-Man, etc.

[Rinku]

Xerian, you're mis-representing what I'm saying. I'm not saying that if a game looks good it is good. I'm saying that if a game has good presentation it is good. Having a good presentation includes a lot more than the graphics. If something kills your brain cells, it doesn't have a very good presentation, now does it?
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Tower Defense Game

[Camdog]

[The Wobbler]

[Rinku]

Gameplay isn't part of the presentation necessarily, but because a game is a whole, the gameplay of a game affects its presentation. Here's an analogy: a game's gameplay affects that game's presentation in the same way that a movie's script affects that movie's cinematography. If you don't have anything good to *present*, then you can't have a good presentation. The gameplay doesn't need to be great, but it needs to exist, and it needs to be substantial enough and interesting enough to be worth presenting.
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Tower Defense Game

[Newbie_Power]

I am not too fond of the word "presentation". It is too broad and is just reviewer jargon that makes no sense.

I present this new game to you for Christmas.

The game presents a clever title screen.

The new-game button presents a cenematic intro.

The intro presents an opening storyline.

The game presents your first town.

The game presents your first battle.

The battle presents a spiffy battle system and cool special effects.

Etc...

I can't just believe that there isn't anything being presented at one point, and everything that gets presented either falls under: Graphics, Sound, Gamplay, which means that we might as well discuss those actual graphic, sound, and gameplay details instead of worrying about presentation itself.

[White_Owl]

Hello old OHR friends...I know the game was flawed in many areas...Truth is, I never sat down and actually thought out a complete storyline for the game...Storyline and gameplay were weak points for me...I'm an artist so naturally the graphics were my strong point...I never caught on with the plotscripting hence to why the game didn't have any...That was really frustrating...Camdog is right, the game felt like it wasn't going anywhere and at a certain point in time I just said f*ck it and gave up...Then I thought of new ideas as the engine got better and came with v2, v3, v4, and started a v5 but those same problems plagued the game...I'm 26 now and I think I could come up with something better but I got into doing music in 2002 and never went back to making games...Don't think I could honestly...Just wanted to come through and see how things were going as I often do browse the boards and see what's new from time to time...If anybody has any questions though I'd be glad to answer...

[Onlyoneinall]

Yeah, I have a couple - HOW HAVE YOU BEEN MAN?! You probably don't remember me, but I used to be Xerian when you were still around. I was the one that started a thread where you role play your characters and you put Augus in there and we all fought him and stuff.

Do you have the updated version of v4? I remember you updated it with a couple of extras, and I've been wanting to play that. I also remember the password was Jemeelah or something along that line. :o

Also, have you seen the Hamsterspeak article that had your game on it? I assume that's what brought you back..

Provided you are the genuine White Owl, good to see you back! You should check out some of the games out now that take advantage of some of the OHR's new features.
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http://www.castleparadox.com/gamelist-display.php?game=750 Bloodlust Demo 1.00

[White_Owl]