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My Ohrrpgce Suggestions
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Newbie_Power




Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1762

PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DQ games were good at telling you what happened to an enemy and which group/enemy it is, and most importantly told you when an enemy is affected by its status or when it recovered from it, so it was easy to commit to memory.

FF1 told you when an enemy was afflicted by status and when they recover, but not which enemy if there's more than one of the same kind. Any buff or debuff was permanent for the rest of the battle if it hits. Player characters would have the word "HP" changed to "DARK", "STUN", "POIS" when afflicted with a named status effect.

OHR games are much more frantic and it's difficult to convey information to the player, so status indicators are more of a necessity for them, IMO.

For the actual presentation of status indicators, I think it should be a user defined thing where they can choose to display any sort of custom icon over an enemy when they need to, and not just for built in statuses because of the heavy emphasis on buffs and de-buffs, and the icons would ideally be for both players and enemies, because like I said OHR games are frantic so you want to make sure the player notices one of their characters got de-buffed.
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msw188




Joined: 02 Jul 2003
Posts: 1041

PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's all true, and I hadn't thought about it this way, but yes the DW games were very good at telling what was going on, because they used text to explain every action in battle (there was almost no graphical aspect at all, just the screen flashing or shaking).

The OHR is definitely more frantic at the moment, but it has certainly come a long way, especially with the recent additions to have captions pause battles. All OHR authors take note - captions remain the best way to impart information in battle to the player!
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My first completed OHR game, Tales of the New World:
http://castleparadox.com/gamelist-display.php?game=161

This website link is for my funk/rock band, Euphonic Brew:
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Newbie_Power




Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1762

PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
All OHR authors take note - captions remain the best way to impart information in battle to the player!
Let's not be hasty in calling them the best. Even if they are I don't see why we shouldn't have status indicators.

Also, captions in their current form are flawed still. You can't put Player/Enemy name tags in captions, a key component in a lot of messages you see in RPGs, unless you enjoy making hundreds of the same attack.
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Bob the Hamster
OHRRPGCE Developer




Joined: 22 Feb 2003
Posts: 2526
Location: Hamster Republic (Southern California Enclave)

PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ooh, yeah, some codes like ${ATTACKER} and ${TARGET} would be awesome for captions.

We could also use support for multi-line captions.

Support for full text boxes in battle would be desirable too, eventually, although there are some very tricky things about implementing that.
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Ronin Catholic
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Joined: 23 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
${ATTACKER} attacked ${TARGET}, doing ${DAMAGE} damage.

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TMC
On the Verge of Insanity




Joined: 05 Apr 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James Paige wrote:
ooh, yeah, some codes like ${ATTACKER} and ${TARGET} would be awesome for captions.


I actually added that to my TODO list recently. I wouldn't complain if you beat me to it. I didn't think of ${DAMAGE}. Anything else?
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msw188




Joined: 02 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps ${Element}, ${Enemy Type}, and ${Stat} would be helpful, if only because people can change those in the Global Text Editor and not have to change it for lots and lots of attack captions. Also, can we alter Global Text Strings with plotscripting? That might make this worthwhile, although I'll admit it seems rather low priority if these things are harder to implement than the others you are planning.

There's also the question of what to do with ${Target} when the attack is a spread attack. This will be needed for Optional Spread attacks used by enemies, I feel.
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My first completed OHR game, Tales of the New World:
http://castleparadox.com/gamelist-display.php?game=161

This website link is for my funk/rock band, Euphonic Brew:
www.euphonicbrew.com
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ShakeyAir




Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 93

PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

msw188 wrote:
Perhaps ${Element}, ${Enemy Type}, and ${Stat} would be helpful, if only because people can change those in the Global Text Editor and not have to change it for lots and lots of attack captions. Also, can we alter Global Text Strings with plotscripting? That might make this worthwhile, although I'll admit it seems rather low priority if these things are harder to implement than the others you are planning.

There's also the question of what to do with ${Target} when the attack is a spread attack. This will be needed for Optional Spread attacks used by enemies, I feel.


Difficult especially since spread attacks can do different amounts of damage to different enemies/heroes. I am not sure how this could be handled without letting attacks call up multiple captions, and doing spread attacks Earthbound style.

-the RAUCOUS REPTILE used BLIPPITY BLOP on ALL HEROES.
-MAGENTA MAN took 85 damage!
-HELLA JEFF took 65 damage!
-PLANT DUDE took 101 damage!
-GUYONFIRE took 200 damage!

This seems like it would be a huge change in the way captions work...
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msw188




Joined: 02 Jul 2003
Posts: 1041

PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh yeah, that's how Dragon Warrior did it as well. This is actually a worse situation than I thought. It might be worthwhile to have some Global Text options for spread heroes, spread enemies, and spread 'all'. Or maybe just a careful note explaining the issue to users.

I still wish there was a way to convert spread attacks to simultaneous single ones in the attack queue, like Dragon Warrior essentially treats them. Thus allowing easily understandable and readable spread counter attacks, reflections, status effects, etc. But that sounds like a much larger job, with rather limited utility.
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My first completed OHR game, Tales of the New World:
http://castleparadox.com/gamelist-display.php?game=161

This website link is for my funk/rock band, Euphonic Brew:
www.euphonicbrew.com
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TMC
On the Verge of Insanity




Joined: 05 Apr 2003
Posts: 3240
Location: Matakana

PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Perhaps ${Element}, ${Enemy Type}, and ${Stat} would be helpful


It would have to pick only the first element set on the attack. (Also, looks like you haven't noticed that enemy types are now elements.)

There's a "get global string" command, but none to set the strings. Why would you want to change element/stat names embedded in attack captions? I don't see the connection.

For spread damage, I would just use the base damage, which may or may not be divided. We could have global text strings for "multiple allies", "multiple enemies", "multiple combatants" for spread attacks. Or instead "multiple heroes", "multiple enemies"?

Conditional and multiple captions sounds too complicated. Seems like that is best left for battlescripting.
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msw188




Joined: 02 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just meant that if an author had made a few hundred attacks with captions describing their damage, and then decided he wanted to change "HP" to "Life" or something, it would be easy to change the global text string for the stat and not have to worry about going back and changing all his captions. Not a huge deal though.

If there were ways to alter these things midgame via plotscripting, it might be worthwhile to have the textual tags (imagine if in FF3/6, while riding Magitek Armor, your HP was called something else for some reason; or imagine a game where one of the elements was a huge deal, always dealing tons of damage, and then midway through the game the heroes discover that this element is actually some kind of dark doom element, and its name is changed moving forward). These are all rediculously hypothetical, I know.
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My first completed OHR game, Tales of the New World:
http://castleparadox.com/gamelist-display.php?game=161

This website link is for my funk/rock band, Euphonic Brew:
www.euphonicbrew.com
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Newbie_Power




Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1762

PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The game already tells you the HP values of something on-screen, so I can live with the compromise of "$(ATTACKER) casts a giant inferno!" and knowing the damage it does to each enemy/hero anyway.
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Bob the Hamster
OHRRPGCE Developer




Joined: 22 Feb 2003
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Location: Hamster Republic (Southern California Enclave)

PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, we should keep this feature simple. Fancy stuff like the Dragon Quest series does will have to wait for battlescripting and textboxes on battle.
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Ronin Catholic
Deadliest of Fairies




Joined: 23 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would also like to see multi-hit attacks add the damage done on each hit to the damage display above the enemy, so that if (f'rinstance) an attack did 20 damage and hit 5 times, it would count up "20 > 40 > 60 > 80 > 100"; not remotely important, but it could look pretty cool.
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"I didn't start the flame war;
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'Twas that way when I got here"

"I didn't start the flame war;
I can't understand a word you're saying
nor the game you're playing~"
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Chronoas




Joined: 18 Sep 2008
Posts: 37

PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ronin Catholic wrote:
I would also like to see multi-hit attacks add the damage done on each hit to the damage display above the enemy, so that if (f'rinstance) an attack did 20 damage and hit 5 times, it would count up "20 > 40 > 60 > 80 > 100"; not remotely important, but it could look pretty cool.


Somewhat in relation to that, I got an enemy in my game that kills the other minor enemies on the screen and absorbs their HP to heal. Each of the minor enemies has 20 HP, and regardless of how many minor enemies the big enemy absorbs up, it will always show the absorption amount as 20. It will still absorb and heal the correct total, however.

For example, 1 big enemy and 4 small enemies at 20 HP. Big enemy absorbs all the small ones, display shows "20" for amount absorbed, but it will correctly absorb and heal 80 HP (20*4 enemies).

If your idea is implemented, I request it show in similar fashion for this situation, too, please. Raspberry! If not, at least make it properly show the amount healed or it gets misleading for the player of the game. Oookay...


-Separate Suggestion: Names for tilesets? Would make organization so much easier if I could name a tileset, for example, World Layer 0, or Cave Layer 2, or Town Layer 1, etc. It's not a huge feature, but it's been big on my list lately just for sake of my sanity.

-Separate Suggestion: Already mentioned this one a while back, but increase max experience total? Or adjustable experience equation? I'm something of a fan of the tradition of giving the player of a reasonably leveled party enough experience from a boss fight to level up. In relation, allow the "experience to level" to continue getting larger than 1mil, or a level 50 equiv. boss would just as easily level you as a level 80 equiv. boss, and that seems silly to me.

-Separate Suggestion: Increase max characters in item names? I realize there's a limit due to the inventory page display, but even an increase to 10 or 12 would be favorable. While it has a nice NES/GB feel trying to cram Chain Mail into ChnMail or ChainMal or ChnMl, the mangling of the English language and ambiguity of the name makes me cringe a little.
~"ChinMail? Who would want to mail me a chin?"

-Separate Suggestion: A way for the shop to show what stats a purchasable item increases, so I can stop trying to cram all the information into the "Description" line? Even with the shorthand stat characters I made in my font, it sometimes takes up a lot, if not all, of the room on an item's description.

-Separate Suggestion: A bitset to make the non-partied PCs still gain experience? Customizable percentage, perhaps? "X% of experience gained split among out-of-party (unlocked) PCs"? For example, if you set it to 20% with 8 total party members, it would give 20% of the experience to each of the party members in the battle, and then take the last 20% and split it amongst the out of party members (they each get 5%). Always a frustrating aspect of a game when you're forced (by plot or otherwise) or merely choose to use a particular character you haven't otherwise touched all game, and so you're running around fighting level 50 enemies with a level 5 PC.

-Separate Suggestion: Increase max number of tags? I realize that this is already being considered, it's just a concern of mine that I'm going to get half way through creating my game and realize I am suddenly out of tags.

-Separate Suggestion: Higher damage multipliers than 11 (1000% damage)? Cause there are times when you just want a 9999 damage attack while still keeping the enemy's stats from being ridiculous. Cool I realize I can hackjob it with a "Increase enemy attack stat", "Damage", "Reset enemy attack stat", but I shouldn't need to.

-Separate Suggestion: I'm pretty sure it's already been mentioned, but screen-size attack animations? It's hard to make a 'summons' attack and yet stuff it in the tiny attack animation box. Bahamut must be free from his tiny box constraints, damnit!

-Separate Suggestion: Ability to add and remove/hide stats? And for that matter, when you do, choice between HP/MP stat behaviour or ATK/DEF/etc. behaviour? I would love to make a Stamina Point stat for physical attacks to drain, while magical attacks drain Mana Points.

-Separate Suggestion: Increase maximum gold you can reward? On that note, more than one common and one rare steal-able/droppable items, perhaps?

-Separate Suggestion: Increase maximum amount of HP enemies can have?


Those are just what I came up with as I remembered all the "Man, I wish..." as I worked on my game, and I could probably keep going if I sat here any longer, but I think I've written a long enough essay at this point. Always look forward to new features, so I hope this gives some ideas for more stuff to improve. Big grin
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