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Weapons, personalities, and what if there weren't swords?
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J.A.R.S.
In umbram deo, ex nihilo...




Joined: 11 May 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the mayan are actually the only possible example, which is why there is a debate...
also, you don't say the ancient greek culture, you have to say the ancient greek cultureS because it was established that aside a few alliances, greek peoples were too different aside from their ethnic origins... indeed, during the peloponnese wars, they opposed a set of values (sparan's side favored fertile grounds and uncentered admin while athens and its allies were more sea-driven and economical) and this opposition was actually greater within the same territory than once compared to say, the persian empire... It is a mistake to refer to them as the "ancient greek culture" this is why most people refer to them as "ancient greece" which is the physical territory. Let me also point out, to support my argument, that there was no single religion in ancient greece. Aside from the 3 main dieties, everything was rather skirmished and entrtwined depending on local beliefs. This, however, was no point of concern and never got fought over (ouch, christianity/middle ages, bite that!) seeing as how they were obviously tolerant of outsider's beliefs. Even when they had the same gods, they had different 2nd names (which stand for their role). So Zeus was one day the bearer of lighting, and in the following city-state, he was something else. Within each city-state were a different set of tribes. (In athens, there were possibly 10 most of the time...)
So I consider it safe to assume that a civilization can sometimes be formed of tribes although I have no proof to support the fact that it is always the case. Moreover, the word tribe was used to define things that are not going to be called tribes by us anymore, but regardless, this is what the ancient called them, so I believe the problem is the word tribe.
I think Rinku's point works if we replace tribes with "people". There is a difference between a civilization and a people. A civilization is formed of a people whereas a people isnt necessarily a civilization. So let's call them civiliztion and uncivilization people Wink
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Me
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uh, from what I've read, the Mayans fought wars fairly often. They basically conquered that whole region of what is now Mexico, and plus they were divided into somewhat autonomous regions which fought with each other a fair amount.

And the Aztecs wouldn't have been using bows offensively so much because their main method of warfare required live prisoners for sacrafices.

And tribe is merely a social grouping term. It does not require nomadic life, even if the grand majority of pre-state peoples were nomadic to some degree.

It is generally agreed that bows were originally invented as a hunting tool, but they are described as weapons of war as early as the earliest "civilizations" - the Indus River Valley people and Mesopotamians both used them to great effect. The Greeks were not so much into bows, though.

I'd like to note that in ancient China, swords were not widely used until fairly late, relative to their history of warfare. The preferred weapon for a long while was the poleaxe. Swords are difficult to make well and not as effective as pole weapons in large-scale warfare, due to the amount of training it takes to use a sword well. While it takes a similar amount of work to master the polearm, it is not nearly as hard to learn how to use one relatively effective.

I think the reason swords are so popular is just for that reason: traditionally, the pole weapons and bows have been the weapons of the lower-ranking members of the military, while a sword was the symbol of a higher officer. Think about wars: often, a formal surrender is accompanied by the defeated general giving his sword to the victor. Swords have much more symbolic meaning in culture across the world compared to other weapons. It's natural to have the hero use one.
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Rinku




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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with that description of why swords are important.

They fought wars, but with other trained armies? I doubt it. I believe they fought wars in the same way that the US fought "wars" with the Native Americans, or in the way that the US fought a "war" with Iraq -- mostly one-sided successes, with the losing side having no real chance of victory.
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J.A.R.S.
In umbram deo, ex nihilo...




Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 451
Location: Under the rainbow...

PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes, indeed, the sumerians were one of the oldest capable army to use the bows. And quite a military force in fact. According to some research ive made in uni's first semester a couple years ago, my personnal conclusion was that, throughout antiquity, the sumerian army was right next to the roman empire in terms of logistics and early developments. They are the first civilization to use the bow as an arm.

As for the sword, I agree. Especially during the bronze age. Greeks refered to bronze as a noble metal despite its weakness compared to iron, and bronze swords were carried on production for deceased heroes. The symbols behind the odyssey and Ilyad reside in the fact that greater heroes carried bronze swords... I guess it got carried over and over...
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Dr. Baconman




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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:30 pm    Post subject: weapons I've used Reply with quote

I'll go ahead and share a personal tidbit, the weapons that some of my characters are using in the in-planning game V-Quest.
Some are cliche, some are not. I will not include the characters that use Swords, Bows, and Hammers/Axes.

One character uses spears and lances, despite the fact that she's a magic-based character (shunning cliche rods and staves). This was actually derived from the character's history, as she comes from a line of fishers who hunt with spears.

Another utilizes his own "tool" weapons, which could range from a wrench to a flamethrower. Though, I admit, this idea was used by Final Fantasy VI before I came up with the idea.

Finally I have a robotic character who attacks with wires from his arms. And not just electric wires, either, I included barbed wires as an option.

However, after reading the List of Console RPG Cliches and playing Kirby games, I know that pretty much anything and everything can be a weapon. Parasols? Yes. Balls? Yes. Trees? Very yes.
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Mr B




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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tribes v. Civilizations

I think part of the problem is that the terms are being used incorrectly. A tribe is a (small[-ish]) group of people tied together socially -- a political unit. A civilization is a holistic approach to culture. A civilization may be shared by one or more social groups.

I think.
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The Drizzle
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isn't this "tribe vs. civilization" discussion essentially pointless? This is a purely semantic argument involving two words with debatable (if not inexact) definitions. It could even be argued that the two words are interchangeable in some instances. Either way, this is pointless and off-topic.

To get back on topic, I'd like to see more cultural value attributed to weapons. Instead of having weapons that almost seem to be chosen because of class, or because of some cool-factor, or just even at random. I'm not saying we should have warriors with rods and mages with battle axes, but historically, there have been many weapons or varieties of weapons that are strongly associated with certain cultures. For example, the Japanese have the katana, the vikings use axes, the greeks use spears. And while in many situations they're not the only ones that use the weapon, they'll have their own variety of weapon, like the british longbow.
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msw188




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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This idea could also lend itself towards making different shops around the world actually feel realistically different. The town that has descended from the fish-hunters has better spears for sale, but little of anything else, say.
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Ronin Catholic
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Revisiting this old topic because I love it.

I've always liked swords: Particularly the straight-edged arming swords and rapiers. However, a man can grow a little tired of swords.

My favorite weapon, for videogames at least, has been boomerangs since I was a small child. Realistic boomerangs need a lot of room and to be thrown at just the right angle and then decidedly not hit the target in order to fly back; videogame boomerangs can be bladed affairs (in fact when I made a post earlier in the thread I was still under the mistaken impression that a default boomerang isn't a wooden club, but a steel blade!). They can basically follow you around like a faithful dog fetching a thrown stick, only the dog is invisible, while somehow not explicitly counting as "magical" or "enchanted". They can pickpocket your enemies of pull levers with all the strength and precision of your actual arms.

Anything can be a boomerang, too. An axe can be a boomerang. A sword can be a boomerang. A ninja star can be a boomerang. A bottle of booze can be a boomerang. A copy of the overworld maptile representing a city can be a boomerang. Go ahead, throw the entire Earth at your enemy and catch it daintily on its return!

Boomerangs can be the weapon that hits the enemy twice, or that hits the enemy and follows up with a stun attack, or that hits all enemies in the battle at once.

Boomerangs can be the weapon of the huge bruiser character or the quick scout or the wizard (is that why the boomerang comes back? Not that the stick is magic, but that its owner is?). One of my characters is a wizard whose magic wand is a boomerang.

What could boomerang as choice of weapon say about a character's personality? Perhaps that they have trouble letting go, that they're stingy about buying ammo for a superior ranged weapon like a longbow or javelins. Perhaps that they're nostalgic, trying to weaponize what was a toy in their childhood. Perhaps a little standoffish - using what are basically the combat mechanics of a melee weapon like a staff or hammer but at a greater distance.

Could you say those things about me? Probably.

My next weapon of choice, the labrys. That's your standard fantasy battle axe; real, historical battle axes generally only had a broad edge on one side, the backside having a hook, a spike, a hammer, or even just smooth steel gripping the shaft all the way around to reduce weight. Fantasy battle axes have more in common with a woodsman's axe and, unlike real battle axes, tend to be larger and heavier instead of thinner and lighter.

I just really like the symmetrical way it looks. How it screams both power and directness. How it's direct, to the point, and brutal. With a sword you might be dueling your enemy; with an axe, you're executing him.

Many people forget this, but shields are also a weapon. Bashing someone with the broad side or rim of your shield would be at least +1 damage relative to punching them with bare knuckles unless you were underwater or something and the drag holds it back. But more importantly, it's the best and cheapest weapon for fending off enemy arrows and melee weapons alike. You aren't much more protected with two shields than with one though - better to take a side-arm like a sword or something for your other arm.

What does it say about a character's personality if his top weapon choice is a shield? That he's emotionally walled off? That he's cautious, maybe a little cowardly? That he's brave and prefers to stand between his enemies' weapons and his less-protected friends?



And here's the weapons of choice for the main characters of each of my major game releases:

Wolf's Quest: Wolf. Sword. He's an intentionally bland, "safe" RPG hero with his gimmick being that he's a wolf named Wolf.

Maces Wild: Ken. Pistol. His pistol is actually more like a small shotgun - the caliber on those bullets is 10.0 "X-calibre", not 0.10. The rifles and machineguns in Detroy use the same bullets, too.

Moron Mission: Paul. Axe of the Apostles. It's either the axe that beheaded St. Jude (so a plain Roman executioner's axe) or the axe that beheaded Crystal Dragon Jesus depending on which of my game settings you're looking at (same name, same mechanics, different design and origin).

Nintendo Quest. Nayte. Katana. Again the hero was aggressively plain as part of the joke, and Erdrick's sprite from DW3 (of which he's barely a palette swap) had a katana and shield, therefore so did Nayte.

Trytuges Saga. Knate. Bow and arrows (regardless of what you equip him with, he eventually gets the option to whip out his bow and start consuming spears from the inventory as one-shot ranged attacks). He's a man of incredible slowness and incredible strength, two things that play well with archery.

OHRodents. Nathan the Mouse. Lego sword. He can use a variety of other implements, but the classic Lego minifigure sword is basically this candy fairy's magic wand; perhaps I should've given him the Lego halberd instead, in hindsight, since there's no axe users in that game anyway. He is also always carrying around a simple plastic pants button to use as a shield, in memory of his recently-deceased friend Beefzok.

A Quest. Eric. Axe. I decided I like axes more than swords overall, so despite A Quest being a callback to my 2003 newbie games visually Eric mainly uses axes instead of swords; it's the most remarkable thing about this paladin otherwise. He's just a generically righteous warrior-mage-prince.

TutOHRial. Natalie. Clubs. Natalie goes out of her way to keep up a "generic RPG cleric" aesthetic over and above her natural affinity with arcane magic, and part of this means typically eschewing bladed weapons for no good reason (sometimes she'll use a dagger, a tiny fairy bow, or a hatchet, but won't use the big swords or axes even though judging by those maces and mallets, she's definitely strong enough for it). But being silly and arbitrary is completely in line with being a fairy. In contrast to Nathan who usually likes shields and sometimes dual-wields, Natalie likes to keep both hands on the shaft when she swings her weapons around for added stability and damage.


And the best-recieved game I've ever made, No Eat. Tendo's in-game weapon choices are to stab things with a lockpick as though it were a spear, to throw his wedding ring as a boomerang (referencing Mega Man 4) or to use a tiny but powerful hatchet called the Half Axe. His actual in-universe weapon of choice is none of these - it's a polearm. The naginata, which is a long-ish curved sword-like blade with a quite long handle. For a while, these were associated with female warriors (the men would buy newer spears and swords then hand their used but still good naginatas to their wives/daughters to defend the homestead with); Tendo learned most of his combat techniques from his mother (his dad was pure white mage missionary with no combat skills at all) and the combination of a sharp blade to give enemies a serious bleeding and a long handle to make up for his short stature lends this to be his logical weapon of choice. As a backup, he has very sharp silver knives...not for undead, devils, and shapeshifters but because of silver's antiseptic properties, these are his surgical knives. He's really desperate if he's stabbing you with those!
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