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Castle Paradox
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Rya.Reisender
Snippy
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 821
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 Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:44 am Post subject: Game Difficulty Thread |
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As requested by TwinHamster, I'll no longer spam his thread with off-topic discussion and continue replying here.
| Calehay wrote: | | Rya.Reisender wrote: | | There is a difference (not major, though) between challenge and frustration, but they are still growing proportionally. |
What does this even mean? |
That means if you take a game and make it more challenging, it'll always get more frustrating as well. The ratio is constant if the gameplay is contant. Meaning a game with good gameplay can be much more challenging than it is frustrating, but a game with bad gameplay will be as frustrating as it is challenging, so the only way to make it less frustrating would be to remove any challenge or to change the gameplay.
| Quote: | | Why is it with you that a challenge can't be fun? |
Personal preference. There are many people that just like playing games to have some fun and relax and they don't want any challenge they just want some fun. In the game journalism forums I'm in it's basically called the modern way of making games. Challenging games are a thing of the past and originally were only created either for the player to put in a lot of credits before finishing the game (arcade), or also because games used to be really expensive two decades ago and most families only could afford one or two games in a year, so the game needed to keep you playing for a year, so it isn't a "waste of money" (and making the game extremely long, story- or gameplay-wise, wasn't an option because of limited memory).
These days this isn't needed anymore. Most people can afford more than 20 games a year and download 5000 or more. Even if the game is only 5 minutes long (like Passage) it can still be considered an awesome game these days if it just has the right game design.
I'm aware that there are still people who want some challenge just out for the hell of it or because they got nothing better to do, but I don't really see a point why anyone should be forcing a challenge if it could be optional as well (as I mentioned earlier). Other genres already often both modes! Many shoot 'em ups can be played with unlimited / increased lives, but also give the option to play on arcade mode. Same can be applied on RPGs, just isn't too common yet.
From a game developers point I can understand you well, you work on a game 50000+ hours and then someone can just finish it in 10 minutes. That sucks! But if you let him die 1000 times, he'll already needs some days, way better!
From a gamers view I don't understand it, though. I noticed that many people in this community have a hard time thinking from a gamer's view (the "screenshots should tell more about the game" discussion was the same way, game developers want more download counts, so you argue with those, but gamers just want to find an enjoyable game easily).
| Quote: | | I have yet to play Darkavern |
I think you should first play the game before discussing about if it's a good idea or not. But at least you stated that you like it if you keep dieing and have to restart over, so I guess you'll like it. Try it anyways!
| Moogle1 wrote: | | Defixed. Permadeath is a defining characteristic of the genre. |
Okay, then I take that back and say the following sentences:
I don't like roguelikes, but I love games that are exactly like roguelikes just without the permadeath feature. If the game has instant death, it should offer the possibility to save anywhere.
| Quote: | | It took me about fifteen years to finally beat NetHack. |
Wow, quite some endurance then.
But think of all the good games you might have missed in that time!
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Snippy:
"curt or sharp, esp. in a condescending way" (Oxford American Dictionary)
"fault-finding, snappish, sharp" (Concise Oxford Dictionary, UK)
1. short-tempered, snappish, 2. unduly brief or curt (Merriam-Webster Dictionary) |
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Rya.Reisender
Snippy
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 821
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:49 am Post subject: |
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| The Drizzle wrote: | | Agreed. The feeling of accomplishing something after beating a game is great. Actually fearing death adds a great deal of suspense to a game. Why play a game where there is NO penalty for making mistakes? How is that fun? |
There are many good games like that. Ever played City of Dreams or Missing?
If the game is only fun when it's challenging then something is wrong with the gameplay / story.
_________________
Snippy:
"curt or sharp, esp. in a condescending way" (Oxford American Dictionary)
"fault-finding, snappish, sharp" (Concise Oxford Dictionary, UK)
1. short-tempered, snappish, 2. unduly brief or curt (Merriam-Webster Dictionary) |
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Moogle1
Scourge of the Seas
Halloween 2006 Creativity Winner
Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 3377
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:43 am Post subject: |
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The penalty for screwing up in Missing is not being able to continue. True, you don't have to start over, but that would be a silly penalty in a puzzle-centric game since you know all the right answers the second time around.
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Stewie
Satisfaction, Quarentined
Joined: 03 Jan 2004
Posts: 33
Location: Up Yonder
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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How do you screw up in Missing? As good as it is, it basically just waits around for you to click the right thing before it continues.
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Rya.Reisender
Snippy
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, there is no situation where I got stuck in Missing and I don't think there is either.
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Snippy:
"curt or sharp, esp. in a condescending way" (Oxford American Dictionary)
"fault-finding, snappish, sharp" (Concise Oxford Dictionary, UK)
1. short-tempered, snappish, 2. unduly brief or curt (Merriam-Webster Dictionary) |
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Calehay
...yeah.
Class B Minstrel
Joined: 07 Jul 2004
Posts: 549
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Rya.Reisender wrote: | | If the game is only fun when it's challenging then something is wrong with the gameplay / story. |
I don't think you understand.
Just because something is easy, does not mean it is not challenging. As easy as I thought Kingdom Hearts II was, I would never say there weren't any challenges. It was just laughably easy.
The situation YOU suggested (Perma-saving in Roguelikes, or...God forbid...Minesweeper) would remove all challenges from the game. It would no longer just be easy, it would be pointless.
| Quote: | | Yeah, there is no situation where I got stuck in Missing and I don't think there is either. |
I remember not knowing what to do next in Missing on one of the days.
The challenge of Missing, and most adventure games in general, is finding out what to do next. Some of them are more challenging than others, but they all have a challenge.
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Calehay |
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Rya.Reisender
Snippy
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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Where the hell does Kingdom Hearts II have any challenge? That's like the only game I'd consider too easy.
Minesweeper with Saving Anytime enabled would still be harder than Kingdom Hearts II.
Also for me "No challenge" is equal to "Easy". How do you differentiate the two? How can there be a challenge if the game is easy?
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Snippy:
"curt or sharp, esp. in a condescending way" (Oxford American Dictionary)
"fault-finding, snappish, sharp" (Concise Oxford Dictionary, UK)
1. short-tempered, snappish, 2. unduly brief or curt (Merriam-Webster Dictionary) |
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Calehay
...yeah.
Class B Minstrel
Joined: 07 Jul 2004
Posts: 549
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Rya.Reisender wrote: | | Also for me "No challenge" is equal to "Easy". How do you differentiate the two? How can there be a challenge if the game is easy? |
A CHALLENGE:
Defeat Heartless/Nobodies/Whatever while making sure your HP stays above 0. If you HP drops to 0, you must restart from a fixed position.
AN EXERCISE IN FUTILITY:
Click on square. Save game. Click on square. Oops, it's a bomb. Load game. Click on different square. Oops, it's a bomb. Load game. Click on different square. Oops, it's a bomb. Load game. Repeat ad nauseam.
Challenge definitely has the connotation of being extremely difficult, but I'm talking about a specific challenge, completely dependent of its difficulty. An obstacle, if you will, but I don't think that word is suitable.
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Calehay |
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Rya.Reisender
Snippy
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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But in KH2 you only need to smash one button all the time and you're HP never go to 0. I wouldn't really call that challenge...
Regarding Minesweeper, no wonder why you think it's stupid, because you assume that everything the player clicks on is a bomb. 
I don't think that a player can actual enjoy Minesweeper like that.
But at least it's still optional to save then.
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Snippy:
"curt or sharp, esp. in a condescending way" (Oxford American Dictionary)
"fault-finding, snappish, sharp" (Concise Oxford Dictionary, UK)
1. short-tempered, snappish, 2. unduly brief or curt (Merriam-Webster Dictionary) |
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Calehay
...yeah.
Class B Minstrel
Joined: 07 Jul 2004
Posts: 549
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Rya.Reisender wrote: | But in KH2 you only need to smash one button all the time and you're HP never go to 0. I wouldn't really call that challenge...
Regarding Minesweeper, no wonder why you think it's stupid, because you assume that everything the player clicks on is a bomb.
I don't think that a player can actual enjoy Minesweeper like that.
But at least it's still optional to save then. |
OKAY! BYE-BYE HAVE A GOOD TIME!
Seriously, you missed my point completely and I'm done trying to explain it. I'm done talking with you.
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Calehay |
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Stewie
Satisfaction, Quarentined
Joined: 03 Jan 2004
Posts: 33
Location: Up Yonder
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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..but...you can't save in minesweeper....
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Calehay
...yeah.
Class B Minstrel
Joined: 07 Jul 2004
Posts: 549
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Stewie wrote: | | ..but...you can't save in minesweeper.... |
| Rya in the thread he derailed wrote: | | Minesweeper is a really good example. It shows why permasaving is so cool. Imagine, after taking a correct tile you could save and then if you take a wrong tile you can return to where have you been and retry. This would actually make the game enjoyable and there would be a point in trying to complete it eventually. Quicksaving in Minesweeper however would be useless because no game takes longer than 5 minutes. |
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Calehay |
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Moogle1
Scourge of the Seas
Halloween 2006 Creativity Winner
Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 3377
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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I wrote an article on this exact topic for Hamsterspeak. I was going to backburner it, but screw that. You'll be hearing my bit on this in the next day or so.
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Stewie
Satisfaction, Quarentined
Joined: 03 Jan 2004
Posts: 33
Location: Up Yonder
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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Ooooh, I get it now....
...wait, that makes even less sense... That's like taking back your accusation in Clue after you find out that those three cards arn't in the little bag.
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Rya.Reisender
Snippy
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 821
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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Minesweeper might be a too simple game to see point maybe!
Hm... but the point is still, giving the option is always better to forcing.
_________________
Snippy:
"curt or sharp, esp. in a condescending way" (Oxford American Dictionary)
"fault-finding, snappish, sharp" (Concise Oxford Dictionary, UK)
1. short-tempered, snappish, 2. unduly brief or curt (Merriam-Webster Dictionary) |
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