Castle Paradox

[Setu_Firestorm]

I went through 13 years of piano lessons, and I have never once heard of a borrowed chord. Maybe I do know what it is and just know it by a different name, but please enlighten me.
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[Joe Man]

Borrowed chords are chords borrowed from the parallel minor or major. If the root of the borrowed chord is not in the original key, then they are named by the accidental. For instance, in major, a chord built on the parallel minor's sixth degree is a "flat six chord", written bVI. Borrowed chords are an example of mode mixture.

~Wikipedia
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Last edited by Joe Man on Fri Dec 13, 1957 1:21 am; edited 2,892 time in total

[Jazz_Man]

[Calehay]

It doesn't have to be the first note, just something to be wary about when learning modes.

Mini lesson on keys:

A key is the flatage and sharpage (These are new words I just made up. Otherwise the number of flats and sharps.) that is in a song. This follows a very regimented pattern, which you can learn by the simple saying:

B E A D Green Color First.

BEADGCF is the order of flats in the flat keys.

But how do we find out what key had what in it?

It's simple, very simple. Let's say we are in the key of Bb Major.

BEADGCF

These are the two flats of Bb Major.

Now, for something more difficult. Db Major.

BEADGCF

The bold are the flats for major.

The pattern for flats is to take the key you are in (remember, this only works with flats. Unless you do F, but I wouldn't recommend this method with F.) go back to the beggining of the BEADGCF, and those are all of the flats included. Then, go one ahead of the key you are in, and that's all the flats needed.

Method 2:

BEADGCF

Choose the last flat in the key signature and take it to this chart. Go back one, and you will find it.


My middle school orchestra teacher gave me a chart that might help you, I'll scan it in and post it up.

(Note: My previous post was incorrect. Defying Gravity does not use I-IV-V. It uses a close relative vi-IV-V. I don't know what I was thinking about when I typed that.)
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Calehay

[Jazz_Man]

[no_shot]

I think the best way to start, if you're not going to learn an instrument any time soon, is to just play around with short, simple melodies and harmonizations in NOTATE, and just slowly improve them.
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[Calehay]

[Jazz_Man]

[Gizmog1]

I have no idea if I need help or not. I'm just gonna fool around for a day or two more, with what I think I know. Thanks though for this help and theory, arguing it expresses it better than trying to explain it would.

[Artimus Bena]

Giz, the only way to really understand music is to really listen to it (study it), and to make it.

A lot.


In total, I've probably done something like 200 compositions on and off the computer in 3 and a half years. Knowing the names of chords doesn't really help you use them well, it only helps you communicate them to other people. I'm of the mind that the sound is more important.

As far as chord progressions: think of chords, for a second, as simple notes. It's the same; though with chords, you get a mood in each 'note', as well as what chord you progress to. Go from one note to another note, and it can be a completely different 'feeling' if you go from that same note, to a different note.

Now, when it comes to orchestral compositions, with brass and strings, etc., keep in mind that most of -those- instruments don't use chords by themselves, so with instruments like that, it's far more natural if you keep them single note by single note. If you want good melody, or even a good song, just remember not to rush while you're creating it, and you will find the right notes to use. Once you've tweaked and prodded and adjusted and added and subtracted and changed and ripped out and shoved in for a while, you'll have a natural understanding.

There's basic stuff that always helps, though; it was mentioned to have a good base to the song. Good advice. You'll find that if you use an underlying theme in the music, it will sound more complete, and the rest of music will change in a way you can't really explain with words.

Another good piece of advice is to keep different instruments in different octaves unless you specifically want them that way (small doses); the main reason is, if you don't do this, the music can sound more like a 'mound' of sounds than music.

Anyways, you only really learn by doing.
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[Jazz_Man]

No no no, Bena. Sure, you can learn by doing, but I bet I could take your music and point out tons wrong with it Theory-wise.

Knowing theory helps you to get much cleaner sounding music, knowing what chord links to what, and how to get it sounding like you want. I look back at music I wrote when I was younger, before theory, that I thought sounded awesome, and I'm embarassed by some of it now.

Theory is more than just knowing what to call things you write. Theory is making sure everything that needs to be there is there, and how much of each to had. Also, it shows you what's possible to make a nice full harmonization. Yeah, you can just piece things together so they sound nice, but odds are, you've doubled the wrong note, you've got parallel 5ths going on, or a whole list of other things that can (and likely do) go wrong. The untrained ear can't pick up on this, but to a music theorist, compositions like that sound weak and amateur.

If you want a nice, complete composition, it's imperative to learn Music Theory.

(I'll likely support this more, when I wake up/have time)

[Moogle1]

[Calehay]

Most pieces move in and out of major and minor. The reason why Aeris's theme is Major is because the entire idea stems off of the major chords, like the I chord that hits at the end of the first phrase. The next section is in the relative minor, but then it moves back to major.

Remember that since a scale consists of major and minor chords, that a piece is bound to have both major and minor chords in it. It may even move to the relative minor, and be in that key for a while.

But I could be wrong. I haven't seen the sheet music, and that's really the deciding factor in deciding what key a piece is in.
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Calehay

[Setu_Firestorm]

Allow me to comment.

Firstly, you guys are sitting here arguing about the use of major and minor chords in musical pieces and you're completely ignoring what Jazz is getting at. You guys are talking about the OVERALL key of the piece. To ellaborate, if you're writing a song in G, and you use the typical easy chords -- G, D, Em, C -- you're still in the KEY OF G, because the note "G" is the root tone of the scale of G Major. Yes you do have an "E minor" chord in there, BUT you've never left the key of G because, if you notice, G's key signature is just an F#. If you look at the key signature of E minor, you'll notice that there's only an F#. Now, if you've ever heard the term "Relative Minor", that's what it's referring to. It says that if you take a Key, and move your scale down 3 half steps, you'll wind up in the minor scale that shares the same key signature (G--Em, C--Am, E--C#m, etc.)

Secondly, pardon my frustration, because it's not directed toward any of you; just the mentality going on here.

/me clears throat

For God sake, theory is the basis of EVERYTHING that music is!

I played in the band at my church for 2 and a half years, and couldn't stand the fact that they sounded great, and none of them knew jackshit about what they were doing mechanically. Yes, you can do a good job without any theory knowledge, but without that knowledge, you're just walking blind. I get extremely frustrated when people go saying that theory isn't a necessary part of music. It's just like saying that we can learn how to speak without learning how to write.

When you learn the theory, you learn the do's and don't's of the art. You might be able to go up to an artists' empty tapestry and paint something somewhat nice, but if you don't know HOW to do what you're doing, you'll only be able to go so far until you realize that you really know nothing.
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[Artimus Bena]

Ok, to clear this up, I'll state on the record that I said nothing against theory itself; what I was doing was stressing the importance of understanding music - that knowing the names of chords gets you nowhere unless you know how they work together. Setu has it right, theory is the basis of music, but you have to admit, if you have a wide knowledge of recent music (like, the last 60 years), some poeple bent the rules and still came out with music of the highest genious.

In any case, Giz, my statement stands; the only way to really know music is to practice practice practice.

(Oh, btw Setu, no offense taken; I just happen to be a fan of both chaos and order.)
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