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Castle Paradox
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Moogle1
Scourge of the Seas
Halloween 2006 Creativity Winner
Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 3377
Location: Seattle, WA
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 Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:37 am Post subject: |
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Rya, you're stepping on a lot of toes here.
| Rya.Reisender wrote: | | except with a lot of plotscripting and even then it won't play smoothly at all. |
Speak for yourself. No one thought smooth sidescrolling was possible before SG3, either.
| Quote: | | But as an external player... compare Trailblazers with Cave Story. Cave Story plays much better or would you doubt that? |
You're comparing the #1 OHRRPGCE sidescroller with the #1 independent sidescroller. I'd say Cave Story plays much better than most games. Not really a fair comparison.
| Quote: | | Back then I played OHR Tactics by Moogle1 which had just horrible gameplay and could in no way compete with professional SRPGs. |
Never mind that it was made in a week. Do some research.
| Quote: | | I know that games with different battle / leveling systems are possible on the OHRRPGCE, but so far they all had pretty bad gameplay simply because the engine isn't made for them. |
You've played a handful of games and you're making huge assumptions. Try something that's not a tech demo. Missing and Timpoline have been mentioned by others
| Quote: | | But Gerania also features some never-seen elements like Fateful Encounters and Slime-Escape-Blockade. Also the dungeon design is pretty unique. |
So Gerania is original, even though that's impossible?
Stop trolling. Don't tell the OHRRPGCE community how much the OHRRPGCE sucks. Don't tell any ____ community how much ____ sucks. This is the definition of trolling. It baffles me why you haven't been banned or warned by the admins.
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The Drizzle
Who is the Drizzle?
Joined: 12 Nov 2003
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Are you kidding me? The blurring effect of past and future are an important aspect of Passage, in fact it's one of the most important original ideas in this game. And you can't do it with the OHRRPGCE. The other things I mentioned can't be done with the OHRRPGCE as well except with a lot of plotscripting and even then it won't play smoothly at all. You just can't make original games like this with the OHRRPGCE. Even if you mention games that completely use plotscripting for battles / gameplay and thus don't use any of the default OHRRPGCE setting. For OHRRPGCE members this might be 'original' because it was done with the OHRRPGCE. But as an external player... compare Trailblazers with Cave Story. Cave Story plays much better or would you doubt that? Inside the OHRRPGCE community those games are pretty unique and original, but outside they are all crappy games that are hardly playable. And that's another reason why people say that OHRRPGCE games suck by default. |
Thought you meant the graphical effect of blurring when the hero ages, not the blurring of tiles. Even that could be done with tile animation and plotscripting to make the animation progress step by step as the player moves toward them. And your tile limitation thing is pretty moot because you can change tilesets for a map through plotscripting. Although, I still think your overstating the importance of that blurring thing, that was just a way to show the abrupt though hazy nature of the change of stages in life (in my interpretation). Part of the art aspect superceding the game aspect of Passage. Also, why would you think you couldn't display a score? A variable tied to how high your hero X location is + treasure points.
And yeah, trailblazers wasn't great, but it did accomplish some difficult things with the editor. That game's pretty old, and doesn't hold up well today (i doubt it's on anyone's top 30), and as was mentioned it was more of an experiment with what can be done with the engine than a polished game. And geez man, relax, I never meant that you could make the best games ever with the OHRRPGCE, just that they don't inherently suck.
| Quote: | Sword of Jade has a unique feature indeed, but it just doesn't work out well gameplay-wise. Plus it's furry. Most people I know hate furries and wouldn't play these games. It also has quite some bugs 'like all OHRRPGCE games'.
Dunno if these games can really become extremely popular. |
It got a good amount of downloads although ANY game you make at this level of graphical quality has essentially zero chance of extreme popularity (depending on what your definition of that is). The reason that a lot of OHR games suck has more to do with their creators than with the engine. Most make games very casually anyway. And Sword of Jade being a furry is another example of creator choice, not engine issues.
Ok, so I'm done with that conversation. I've said my piece with regard to the reviews and I think that I agree with a lot of *gasp* what Rya said about that. The reviews here are very community/engine driven and not as much based on games in general. Beyond community/engine promotion, I don't know that there is a great reason to bring up the phrase OHRRPGCE.
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Onlyoneinall
Bug finder
Joined: 16 Jul 2005
Posts: 746
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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Rya, you're making my head hurt. The only reason you got so much feedback on Fatal Maze was because of the way you pissed everybody off made them play it, whether to see if you're as good as you say you are, or to find all the things wrong with it.
And so what if games like Boundless Ocean and Final Fantasy H doesn't get recognized in indie game communities? Doesn't mean they aren't good, or that they can't become popular if you turn it to the right audience.
And you're saying your game's features have never been done before, whether in the OHR or not? They have been in some shape or form.
But you should never be surprised if your game doesn't get a lot of feedback. That is one of the big downfalls in this community (in my opinion), although the Hamsterspeak magazine can often be a great way to counter that problem.
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Rya.Reisender
Snippy
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 821
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not the one who started this discussion. Someone displayed a short review of Swimmy about Fat Frog RPG and it was really negative and I try to explain that this is just how external players see OHRRPGCE games.
How is this off-topic at all?
| Quote: | | Speak for yourself. No one thought smooth sidescrolling was possible before SG3, either. |
SG3?
| Quote: | | You're comparing the #1 OHRRPGCE sidescroller with the #1 independent sidescroller. I'd say Cave Story plays much better than most games. Not really a fair comparison. |
How is this not fair? I mean that's exactly my point. "OHRRPGCE games suck by default so comparing them with real games is unfair", that's basically what you are saying. If OHRRPGCE games can be as good as any other games then comparing them to any other game is fair. You'll see SB saying that Cave Story is awesome, but you won't see them saying that Trailblazers is awesome even if I'd get them to try it.
Oh and I didn't mean to say my game is special. I tried to display that I think it has some unique feature, but yet it's not acknowledged as good game. Same with most other OHRRPGCE games.
| Quote: | | Stop trolling. Don't tell the OHRRPGCE community how much the OHRRPGCE sucks. Don't tell any ____ community how much ____ sucks. This is the definition of trolling. It baffles me why you haven't been banned or warned by the admins. |
This is not really how trolling is defined. The intention is what defines a troll. A troll by definition has the intention to make the users angry, however my intention is to make the users understand how it is. In no way I enjoy that all the people are getting angry. I'd prefer if the people just would understand me and say "Oh you are right, man, why didn't I think of this?". So I'm not really a troll, just misunderstood.
@The Drizzle
Actually I agree with everything you just posted. Well you said it yourself "You can't make the best game ever with the OHRRPGCE". In SB that translates to "Those games suck by default". It's just that you personally wouldn't call it "suck" while they do.
And so we are back on topic. What is "This game isn't the best, but it's good for the OHRRPGCE" in community reviews will be "This game sucks" in external reviews.
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Newbie_Power
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:00 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | How is this not fair? |
He already explained why. Cave Story doesn't just trump OHR games, it trumps pure programmed games, and even many commercial games.
News flash: Games exist that aren't at the top of the food chain. There are many decent games made that will never trump huge hits like Cave Story, and OHRRPGCE right now is struggling to just be known and enjoyed. It's not trying to dethrone every single thing.
| Quote: | | This is not really how trolling is defined. The intention is what defines a troll. A troll by definition has the intention to make the users angry, however my intention is to make the users understand how it is. In no way I enjoy that all the people are getting angry. I'd prefer if the people just would understand me and say "Oh you are right, man, why didn't I think of this?". So I'm not really a troll, just misunderstood. |
You don't even agree with Select Button, yet you're trying to shove their opinions down our throats as if it were gospel. We get it, they don't like OHRRPGCE games. We'll find somewhere else to get exposure.
By constantly repeating what Select Button says about us, it may as well be trolling, even if it's not your intention (and I firmly believe trolling should be punished regardless of intention).
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Onlyoneinall
Bug finder
Joined: 16 Jul 2005
Posts: 746
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:11 am Post subject: |
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| Rya.Reisender wrote: | | Quote: | | You're comparing the #1 OHRRPGCE sidescroller with the #1 independent sidescroller. I'd say Cave Story plays much better than most games. Not really a fair comparison. |
How is this not fair? I mean that's exactly my point. "OHRRPGCE games suck by default so comparing them with real games is unfair", that's basically what you are saying. If OHRRPGCE games can be as good as any other games then comparing them to any other game is fair. You'll see SB saying that Cave Story is awesome, but you won't see them saying that Trailblazers is awesome even if I'd get them to try it. |
Are you kidding me? That is NOT what is basically being said.
O.H.R.RPG.C.E stands for Official Hamster Republic Role Playing Game Creation Engine. The engine was created to make your own Final Fantasy style RPGs. Not side scrollers. Okay, it can be considered a fair comparison. Trailblazers vs Cave Story. Both are indie side scrollers. Okay, based on that criteria, I suppose it can be fair. But not on the basis of the limits that Trailblazers was restricted to. Why not compare say, Missing to Silent Hill 4, and let's call it a fair comparison? Even though one is made by one person who is doing it on their free time, while the other is made by hundreds and hundreds of people who are doing it for commercial sales, well, they're both games being made, let's compare them to see which one sucks more!
I'm more bothered by your quote, "OHRRPGCE games suck by default so comparing them with real games is unfair". What the hell is a default suck? OHRRPGCE games are not "real games"? How is there any implication that we believe OHR games are not "real games"? What are "real games"? OHR games do NOT suck by default. This doesn't make any sense. That's like saying, "All people who work for Disney love Mickey Mouse by default.", or "People who look at porn are virgins by default.", or "Serial killers are born to be serial killers by default.", or "All games made by Konami are stellar masterpieces by default." It doesn't. Make. Sense.
Think about it.
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Rya.Reisender
Snippy
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 821
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:55 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | He already explained why. Cave Story doesn't just trump OHR games, it trumps pure programmed games, and even many commercial games. |
Yes, and that's why it's a good game.
You just won't get it, it's not about what I think. It's just that most guys here are saying "Hey you can't make better games with the OHRRPGCE due to the restrictions so it's unfair to compare them with professional games" but on the other hand you say "OHRRPGCE don't suck by default". THIS is what doesn't make sense. Either OHRRPGCE games can be as good as any other game but then can also be compared to other games in a fair way or they will always be worse. Decide for one already.
I already said multiple times that OHRRPGCE games can be good... for OHRRPGCE games. I also said there are exceptions like Missing that are good games overall.
Oh and while I can clearly say that Cave Story is better than Trailblazers, I couldn't clearly decide whether Silent Hill 4 or Missing is better regardless of how many players played it. Hell, I'd even say Bloodlust is way scarier than Resident Evil.
Edit: "All games made by Konami are stellar masterpieces by default." this could be something SB says. :p
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Snippy:
"curt or sharp, esp. in a condescending way" (Oxford American Dictionary)
"fault-finding, snappish, sharp" (Concise Oxford Dictionary, UK)
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Newbie_Power
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:35 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Yes, and that's why it's a good game. |
I was explaining why it was an unfair comparison, not why it was a good game.
I did not explain very well what I wanted to get across. OHR games will not be competing with games such as Cave Story anytime soon, but they can compete with games of the 8-bit/16-bit era, as well as early DOS gaming.
This is a fair comparison, though judging by the criteria you kept bringing up, this is not the kind of fair you are looking for.
| Quote: | | Hell, I'd even say Bloodlust is way scarier than Resident Evil. |
Resident Evil has always been about its game play anyway. Capcom even figured this out at some point that they weren't going to compete with Silent Hill and Fatal Frame in the scare department, and thus Resident Evil 4's switch to heavy action.
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Rya.Reisender
Snippy
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 821
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:44 am Post subject: |
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Isn't Cave Story more or less an 8-bit game, too? And it was also done by only a single person. I don't see why it could be unfair to compare it to other games just because it's good.
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Newbie_Power
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:51 am Post subject: |
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I was talking more about commercial games (and are RPGs/adventure games) that were made during that time, when people didn't have Windows NT and the SDL library to work with.
Cave Story is better compared to other indie programmers that can accomplish the same (I've seen one game that pulled it off), because even with the 8-bit style graphics, it does not have any innate technical technical limitations that people can criticize.
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TheGiz> Am I the only one who likes to imagine that Elijah Wood's character in Back to the Future 2, the kid at the Wild Gunman machine in the Cafe 80's, is some future descendant of the AVGN? |
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Rya.Reisender
Snippy
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:31 am Post subject: |
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But then you are saying that the OHRRPGCE has these limitations.
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Newbie_Power
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:39 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | But then you are saying that the OHRRPGCE has these limitations. |
| Quote: | | As for reviews, I think if the OHR has to be mentioned in some way in an external game review, a good idea may be to talk about how the game hides any functional weaknesses the OHR may have to create a result that surpasses what it normally does. This will put focus on a developer's effort to accomplish tasks. |
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Rya.Reisender
Snippy
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 821
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:15 am Post subject: |
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Yeah.
In other words "Let's display the game as good, although it sucks, and in reality, it's only the developer that is good."
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Snippy:
"curt or sharp, esp. in a condescending way" (Oxford American Dictionary)
"fault-finding, snappish, sharp" (Concise Oxford Dictionary, UK)
1. short-tempered, snappish, 2. unduly brief or curt (Merriam-Webster Dictionary) |
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Newbie_Power
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:37 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | In other words "Let's display the game as good, although it sucks, and in reality, it's only the developer that is good." |
...
Okay. I'm freaking sick of this crap. That is one of the most purposely fabricated arguments I've ever seen, and you know full well why it's not true. I know that is what SB is saying not you, but what's the point? I'm not even speaking to SB itself.
You clearly value what SB says over anything, regardless of not agreeing with them, and are defending them to the death. Every attempt to be reasonable and every attempt to argue has resulted in "SB says the OHRRPGCE sucks".
I should stop bothering with this thread.
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Camdog
Joined: 08 Aug 2003
Posts: 606
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:30 am Post subject: |
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Jesus, Rya, YOU'RE NOT LISTENING.
1. Saying Cave Story is better than OHR games is a stupid argument because Cave Story is better than most games. That does not reflect poorly upon the engine, it merely confirms how awesome Cave Story is.
2. OHR games are not crap by default because they are generally not as good as Cave Story. THIS. IS. THE. STUPIDEST. ARGUMENT. THAT. HAS. EVER. BEEN. MADE.
3. Read the posts in full and make sure you understand them before you reply to them. |
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