Castle Paradox

[Moogle1]

I've been designing games since before several of you were born. This makes me feel kind of old. As I tumble towards the end of my OHR lifespan, having only a good game or two left in me, I feel it necessary to shed my experience upon you all.

#1. Gamemaking is an end unto itself. For some reason, a lot of people -- even serious designers (Rinku, I'm talkin' to you) -- don't get this. It's true, though. I never finished half of my games (the numbers are much worse if you look at my pre-OHR period), but I learned a lot in each of them. You don't go into a project with that in mind, but you should be able to see your growth looking at your past games. Yes, games are art, especially finished games. But that doesn't mean that games are merely a means to an end. Games are their own end.

As a corollary, gamemaking skills translate into other aspects of life. Making dungeon layouts, composing music, creating balanced stats, etc. all works into skills you need in real life if you know how to make the conversion.

#2. Storytelling is more important than story. In other words, characterization, cinematography and dialogue will more than make up for a rehashed plot. Great example: Brave Fencer Musashi.

#3. Innovation is excellence. Remembering that it is a game you are making, after all, you should offer the player a gameplay experience that is not exactly like what he has ever had before. In my games, this is generally something quirky like a custom battle engine, minigames, or something to that effect. Other games do it well with the default OHR engine. Looking back on my work, this is the one thing that all my games have in common (Mystic Sky's Summon Spheres, Moogle Quest's bugcatching, and so forth). This applies equally or more to commercial games.

#4. If you want something done right, do it yourself. Though industry will require you to specialize, if you want to make your own game, you will ultimately have to do everything yourself, as everyone is only dependable to a point. If you suck at something, learn how to do it better. That's really the only way you'll become a better designer. It'll also make you more marketable later on.

#5. Don't just play games. When you play a game (especially commercial), analyze it. What makes it so good? What isn't so great about it? Do you get any ideas for your own game by playing this one? Every game you play should be influential on your own gamemaking.

---

And that's the best advice I can give to anyone who's serious about game design.
_________________

Slime Salad :: Independent Game Design

[Sephyroth]

"Only a good OHR game or two", I hope. Surely you'll continue to make games with other engines, ya?

In other news:

#1: ..of course, the most important thing involved in game design that carries over to other aspects of life is the ability to design and see a full project through.

#4: ..which is why one should always strive not to rip anything.
_________________
im realy ded

[Moogle1]

I should've been more clear on that. Of course I was referring to the OHRRPGCE when I said one or two games left.

On your comments -- yes, planning and executing a full project are useful skills, but I wouldn't call them the most useful. Another useful skill is knowing when to move on. I have finished a few games and I don't regret not finishing most of the rest.

And, yes, that is probably the best, most pragmatic argument against ripping.
_________________

Slime Salad :: Independent Game Design

[Setu_Firestorm]

Okay, my opinion (as if you probably care):

#1) I'm not quite sure what the hell you were talking about, but I suppose, being the first to say that, I'm probably in your statistic of people whose heads that goes over.

#2) I more than ever agree. I'll be honest; I'm not a serious game maker but more a serious film maker, or at least I'm just now starting in that field, but that was my original intentions when I went into game making. With Neo Krysta 3, I was shooting for a more cinematic feature than a game, which of course, NK3 had its own set of issues, but even Aeth, who was the only one who reviewed it, even said that the presentation was absolutely excellent. This I hope to achieve with Children of the Sky, as it is more driven by the cinematic drama factor more than just an everyday RPG experience.

But this point is also what makes Shadowii, Orchard, and RMZ good at what they do when it comes to their character development and portrayal.

#3) I agree with this point, even though I shouldn't say too much on the subject. With the exception of .hack//OHR (which I only started for the heck of it without the initial intention of finishing it until it started becoming unusually popular), that has always been my greatest weakness as a game maker; I always make my games as though I wanted them to be movies instead of games, and that does cloud my judgement as a game maker (which is why I'm teaming with Jabbercat on my currently new project).

#4) Heheh. This part's kinda funny, because I know what it's like to have a team experience on game making. Although most of the Realmsoft Team never existed, Brian (Chaz VanLanden) always helped me, and still does even nowadays, develop my stories and concepts, I relied on Jordan Frazier and Jessica Park on Neo Krysta 3 to do some of the conceptual artwork, and while I think they did an excellent job (when I get my new computer and hook up my picture scanner, I'll post their work), it was a real pain in the rear to work with a team, and I also think it took away some of my productivity as the one who actually MADE the game in the end.

#5) Not just games, movies also. Most of what I learn I learn from movies rather than games (even though games do offer some neat ideas). They let you in on how you can portray things at a believable level considering the limitations of the OHR engine.

Anyway, that's my opinion on your words of wisdom.
_________________


Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/georgerpowell
Newgrounds: http://setu-firestorm.newgrounds.com

[Jjkaybomb]

All of it is so true, and I have examples to prove it.

On the end unto itself: Oh so true. No further comment

On the storytelling part: That practically is the only thing I do when I make games. Without a proper storyline the whole game is just a bunch of mindless randomness. The only things that can live without storyline are insane humor.

On the innovation part: I'm currently trying to fix up some of my old games, To be a Hero and one you've never seen, Threefold, to see if it had any good life in it. Surprisingly all it needed was a boost

On the yourself part: I really hate my graphics. I really want to get someone to do them for me. But I know I'l never learn unless I try and try and try. Except with the music. I'm compleatly tone deaf and no matter how hard I try it never comes out right. I'll try, but right now I'm just using ripped music.

On the observe part: I did that to, except on Harry Potter. What was so great about it? Nothing that I could see. Observation is an important key to understanding games, not just why its good, but plot points they don't really touch upon.

Those really show everything you need to know about making and playing games. You are very wise Moogle1
_________________
A man once said to the Universe "Sir! I exist!"
"However," replied the Universe, "This does not create in me a sense of obigation."
~Stephen Crane

[Kenji Murasame]

5 excellent points. I don't see how anybody could disagree!

[Moogle1]

To clarify: I guess I misstated #5, because many things can be applied to game design. I was sitting in a lecture in government class when something the teacher said struck me. Haven't used that line of thought yet, but I'm sure I will. So, as Setu said, movies count, as do (surprisingly enough) government lectures.

Jjkay: Either you mistyped or don't understand the difference between storytelling (cinematics, cutscenes, dialogue) and storyline (plot, events). Play Shadowiii's Stop for an example game with excellent storytelling but few plot events (I think I could summarize it into about five bullet points).
_________________

Slime Salad :: Independent Game Design

[Shadowiii]

I love #2. Everyone whines about how much dialogue I put in my games (warning: Pitch Black 2 has a LOT) for how much plot is actually in it, but...CHARACTERS PEOPLE! It is SO BLOODY HARD to develop characters with only little text boxes, and (if you don't go to the extreme and use NPC emotions), relativly little changes in the npcs. The way to tell the story is really important, especially in OHR games. Why? Because story in OHR games doesn't just do one thing, it does two.

First, it tells the story, duh. You cant' advance the story without telling it.

Secondly (and more importantly), it tells about the characters. This is why it is hard to make RPGs with only dialogue to tell the story. Every word taht comes up is coming from someone on-screen's mouth. That means that every word has to be perfectly in line with however you developed the character who said it. This is a double bladed sword, in my opinion. I love it because I get to develop the story through the characters. Very few generes do that. Movies you can just show it through visuals. Books you read it. In most OHR-RPGs, you have to tell the story with another's mouth, and see the story though the person's eyes. This means that character development has the potential to skyrocket. Now we get to the bad side...it's hard. Really hard. And really easy to screw up (heck, 90% of OHR games do).

Ok, there's my rant/blabfest on the subject. I just dont' think enough people realize how important this is...

Follow up: Want to see two different examples of what moogle is talking about (game with little cinematography vs one with lots?). We have the most rockin example hre on the site. Play JSH/Poodle's "OMFT TIZ ROXORS." Then play Machu's "Wow, this is awsome." Look at the difference! It's incredible! And the dialogue is exactly the same!
_________________
But enough talk, have at you!

[Uncommon]

Shadow, don't think that you have to use mounds of dialogue to set up a character. Haven't you heard the saying "less is more"?
Obviously, if people are complaining, you're using too much dialogue to set up your characters. You can't completely write-off pacing for the sake of characterization, you know. It's just as much a part of storytelling.

Also, times when I've noticed that you've used too much dialogue wasn't when you were setting up characters. One example is the White Lady in Stop. She's not setting up any characters in her speech, she's giving you a history lesson. And she's taking way too much dialogue to do it...

[Me]

I agree wholeheartedly. Solid.

[Soule X]

[Shadowiii]

Uncy, good point, but Stop is a bad example, because I'm trying to fit probably a novel worth of story into an hour long (well, it was supossed to be when finished) OHR-Movie, so the dialogue went extreme.

Not only that, you only learn about 70% of what you need to know by the end in Stop. I guess it is really bad pacing...spread 30% of the history over two games, and 70% over one. Then again, the other two had a more important STORY to it, so I suppose it made up for it...

But yes, some dialogue can work out shorter, and others work out better longer. I guess it just depends on the scene and the manner of storytelling.
_________________
But enough talk, have at you!

[Uncommon]

[Shadowiii]

Heh, that's actually only about 15% in one conversation....

(no, dont' ask how much history there is >_<)
_________________
But enough talk, have at you!

[rpgspotKahn]