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Cube
Dimensional Traveller




Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 294

PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 11:32 pm    Post subject: Forum Changes Reply with quote

Well! Been a while since I've posted, but here I am. If anyone is curious, I've been going to college full time, and now that summer break is here, I've got a bit more free time to worry about CP.

Anyways, IM and me are still plugging away at the site, hoping to get it out asap. We've both had restricting time schedules, which is why it's taking forever and a half for things to happen. Things are moving along, and will eventually be ready.

So while we're not ready to release the site itself yet, we've been thinking we'd at least try to tidy a few things up at least, such as the forum. A few of you discussed back in the Christmas thread about how there were too many forums on CP and things needed to be changed.

So that's what this thread is for. We want to post our thoughts, but also get some more feedback on what people want to see done to the forums. What we've come up with is as follows:

Castle Paradox Community
- The Soapbox
- Castle Paradox Discussion
- Creative Corner
- Video Game Discussion
- Paradox Lounge

OHRRPGCE
- Main OHRRPGCE Discussion
- OHRRPGCE Help

That's it. We plan on getting rid of all the group forums (And groups) as they're pretty much never used and have no real purpose. The following is a description of what the forums are:

The Soapbox: Community Announcements, of course.
Castle Paradox Discussion: We want feedback and discussion on how things are on CP and the feature we will eventually release. This is a forum to tell us what you like, hate, and want changed or added.
Creative Corner: This is a merging of all the "art" type forums, such as story, music and drawings/paintings/whatever else falls under art.
Video Game Discussion: As I've said before in the past, we want CP to move to become more of a video game site that's not only about game creation, but playing games themselves. We want to draw in people who are just here to have a good time, and to give you creators an audience to release your games to.
Paradox Lounge: AKA General Discussion. Talk about almost anything, but being civil and mature while you do it.
OHRRPGCE Discussion: Talk about OHR games and stuff.
OHRRPGCE Help: Help for plotscripts and whatever else people may have trouble with while making a game.

So. Yay? Nay? Add a forum, delete one? Let us know.
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Moogle1
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Joined: 15 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is strictly an improvement from the existing format.

Unfortunately, it's still more forums than the current usage rate will support. Slash, burn. I don't know why you need to separate OHRRPGCE discussion, Video Game discussion, and OHRRPGCE help. At the very least you could combine OHR help and discussion, but separating OHR discussion from VG discussion contradicts the latter's stated purpose: talking about playing games, whether they're made here or not. My suggestion would be one VG discussion board and one Game Design board.

CP Discussion also seems unnecessary. Could easily be combined with the gen disc board. If you're really attached to the idea, at least rename it. "Suggestion Box" is a more intuitive name.
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jabbercat
Composer




Joined: 04 Sep 2003
Posts: 823
Location: Oxford

PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I definitely think there should be one gen discussion board, and video games and OHRRPGCE should be merged (with a definite emphasis on the OHR).
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Mariel




Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Posts: 78
Location: In your dreams

PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could something be done about the disjointed connection between the journals and the forums? You can see all the new forum posts from the journal page, but can't see the new journal posts from the forum, and the graphic difference between the areas made me wonder if they were two different sites the first time I saw them.

Also, it may not seem that important, but just having the typical phpbb skin makes the forum look really rough. Even just having a different banner at the top of the page would make it more... homey, you know? Why is it that the games and journals area has a different skin than the forum anyway?

Dis I have always wondered about. If we want to attract more users and community members, we gotta look shiny.
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jabbercat
Composer




Joined: 04 Sep 2003
Posts: 823
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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I expect all of that to be taken care of with the new site.
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Bob the Hamster
OHRRPGCE Developer




Joined: 22 Feb 2003
Posts: 2526
Location: Hamster Republic (Southern California Enclave)

PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also agree about merging OHR discussion and help.

Also, I am curious what will happen to the stuff that is currently in the usergroups when those go away? Will it vanish forever, or will it be merged into the archive of other groups?
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Gizmog1
Don't Lurk In The Bushes!




Joined: 05 Mar 2003
Posts: 2257
Location: Lurking In The Bushes!

PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I pretty much agree with Moogs. CP Discussion and ParadoxLounge can be merged together, and both OHRRPGCE forums can be merged with the Game Discussion pretty easily. I hate having to check OHR General Discussion, Announcements, and sometimes the Soapbox to find the thread I'm looking for right now.

I'm kind of sad that we're going to lose Story Time. It was almost always a disappointment in terms of content, but I'm sad that we'll never get the cookies and milk it promised. When you and IM finally end the ol' girl, make sure you drink a toast of Oreo and 2%.
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Inferior Minion
Metric Ruler



Joined: 03 Jan 2003
Posts: 741
Location: Santa Barbara, CA

PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mariel wrote:
Could something be done about the disjointed connection between the journals and the forums? You can see all the new forum posts from the journal page, but can't see the new journal posts from the forum, and the graphic difference between the areas made me wonder if they were two different sites the first time I saw them.

Also, it may not seem that important, but just having the typical phpbb skin makes the forum look really rough. Even just having a different banner at the top of the page would make it more... homey, you know? Why is it that the games and journals area has a different skin than the forum anyway?

Dis I have always wondered about. If we want to attract more users and community members, we gotta look shiny.


These are all issues I'm trying to address with the new version of CP. I'm working on integrating the same theme throughout both the forum and the main site (which is taking much longer than I thought it would - may release without this skin finished) and have pulled all the journals into subforums on the main forum page.

Currently, the main forum space is using out of the box phpBB2 with very minor modifications. Everything else (game list, song list, reviews, and journals) was written from scratch. I stopped trying to synchronize the forum and main page when our initial launch was scrutinized for its look and feel. I completely understand where the users were coming from and have been trying to correct all the issues identified during that launch with the new version.

As far as new CP status is concerned, here's where I stand:
  • Multiple Author Support
  • Journal support for songs
  • Journals (and eventually reviews) are tightly integrated into the project display page
  • Unlimited screenshot support
  • Unlimited downloadable file support (for games, songs still limited to mp3, ogg, wav, bam, and midi).
  • Project timeline tracks changes - does not track name/description changes, only file/screenshot changes, author changes, and journal posts.
  • File history is maintained across uploads (CP will maintain multiple versions of each file uploaded)
  • Project Polling (90% done - can create and manage, can't view or vote yet on project pages)
  • Plenty of tracking support - reporting console needs to be built
    • All existing tracking surrounding downloads
    • How many views for each project (even each screenshot)
    • Where are viewers coming from?
    • Campaign support, e.g. tagging links with specific names so you can explicitly track clicks. For instance, you create 3 different banners for your project and want to know which banner is providing the most views. You can associate 3 distinct tags, one for each image, and then every time you link to your game, you append the tag associated with that image.

I still need to write a migration script to move all existing journal threads into the new journals. I also need to build the reviews infrastructure and then migrate all reviews into the new format. I may decide to release without reviews...there are so many changes I want to make to them that it may be worth releasing without them, especially since HamsterSpeak provides an excellent source of reviews and there haven't been any new reviews written in ages (only cross-posts from HamsterSpeak articles, cut down to fit our forced structure).

The only other outstanding issue is error handling and exception messaging. Right now, if an error occurs, I get a line number and a message which is far too cryptic for users. I need to implement exception handling with some meaningful error messages and also support inline error messaging for recoverable error (like "Project Name is a required field").

I really want to get this launched, but project deadlines at work have been consuming quite a bit of my time.

James Paige wrote:
I also agree about merging OHR discussion and help.

Also, I am curious what will happen to the stuff that is currently in the usergroups when those go away? Will it vanish forever, or will it be merged into the archive of other groups?


I have every intention of archiving everything. However, I do not know if the archive will reside within the current forum or not. I was really hoping to have the phpBB3 upgrades done before we did this modification so I could just move all the deleted forums into subforums within an archive heading, but presenting 10+ locked forums to users who sign up to view archives just seems silly.

I may just create a copy of the database right before we move things around, point a fresh phpBB installation to it, make all forums locked and public, then call it the archive.

Gizmog1 wrote:
I pretty much agree with Moogs. CP Discussion and ParadoxLounge can be merged together, and both OHRRPGCE forums can be merged with the Game Discussion pretty easily. I hate having to check OHR General Discussion, Announcements, and sometimes the Soapbox to find the thread I'm looking for right now.


I also agree with this grouping. Cube's concern was we can always merge forums if one is not being utilized. It's hard to split one forum into two if we want to separate engine specific discussions from general game discussions down the road. I suggested we get user feedback instead of trying to make these decisions on our own.

I also want to separate discussion from help topics. In some cases, discussion does turn into help, but I would like to facilitate a specific forum devoted entirely for help topics. I also intend on allowing anonymous posting within this forum, as I have seen some complaints about that. I don't think this help board needs to be, nor do I feel it should be, Plotscripting (or OHR) specific.

~IM
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FyreWulff
Still Jaded




Joined: 02 Apr 2005
Posts: 406
Location: The Internet

PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Castle Paradox and Video Game discussion should be removed. CP discussion will be mostly talking about stuff that the Soapbox takes care of anyway, and we already have Slime Salad for video game discussion if people really want a focused forum for it. And if people really want to start a thread about their favorite new RPG, they can post about it in the journals, which will encourage people to use the journals.

You can of course look at my previous posts on this matter to see where I am coming from. It's good to see you two are actually finally taking steps towards doing this.

this is what you have so far.
Castle Paradox Community
- The Soapbox
- Castle Paradox Discussion
- Creative Corner
- Video Game Discussion
- Paradox Lounge

OHRRPGCE
- Main OHRRPGCE Discussion
- OHRRPGCE Help


this is my compromise between my previous proposals and what you guys want:

Castle Paradox Community
- The Soapbox
- Creative Corner (this forum should probably only show up to logged in users, general passerby are not going to really care about a forum based around critique. or at least make it not show up on the index to unregistered users but can still be linked to)
- Paradox Lounge (General discussion. Talk about anything not related directly to front page announcements or the OHRRPGCE.)

OHRRPGCE
- OHRRPGCE General (game announcements, WIPs, demos, discussion)
- OHRRPGCE Help (plotscripting, howto, programmer questions)

This also makes the categories a lot more balanced.

Since it is in fact easier to merge than to split, I would say let the OHR forums be two seperate forums for 2 months. If after two months, if all threads from both forums with a last post within a time threshhold (say, a week) could all fit in on the front page, merge them. If combined it would require you to have almost 3 pages, then keep them seperate.

And if it is in fact determined that they become one forum, all the forums should be under one category in order to kill any sort of clutter. In that case, i would sort them from top to bottom as Soapbox, OHR, Creative Corner, and then Lounge (so that perhaps you can have some room under the Lounge heading to show the top 3 active threads or something)

Either way, the sooner this site gets off phpbb2 the better
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Bob the Hamster
OHRRPGCE Developer




Joined: 22 Feb 2003
Posts: 2526
Location: Hamster Republic (Southern California Enclave)

PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like Fyre's trimmed-down list, but I disagree with this point:

Quote:

(this forum should probably only show up to logged in users, general passerby are not going to really care about a forum based around critique. or at least make it not show up on the index to unregistered users but can still be linked to)


Please don't make any forums hidden to unregistered users.
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Moogle1
Scourge of the Seas
Halloween 2006 Creativity Winner
Halloween 2006 Creativity Winner



Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 3377
Location: Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FyreWulff wrote:
Since it is in fact easier to merge than to split, I would say let the OHR forums be two seperate forums for 2 months. If after two months, if all threads from both forums with a last post within a time threshhold (say, a week) could all fit in on the front page, merge them. If combined it would require you to have almost 3 pages, then keep them seperate.


Unless I'm misunderstanding you, there's no way the forums would stay split this way.
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Inferior Minion
Metric Ruler



Joined: 03 Jan 2003
Posts: 741
Location: Santa Barbara, CA

PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James Paige wrote:
I like Fyre's trimmed-down list, but I disagree with this point:

Quote:

(this forum should probably only show up to logged in users, general passerby are not going to really care about a forum based around critique. or at least make it not show up on the index to unregistered users but can still be linked to)


Please don't make any forums hidden to unregistered users.


I completely agree with you. There is no reason to make any forums hidden to unregistered users.

Personally, I don't feel there needs to be an explicit OHR section at all. The reason Cube initially placed both a Video Game discussion and an OHR discussion is because he wanted to facilitate both types of discussion on the site. Having an OHR specific discussion section then telling all other types of game discussion to move to Paradox Lounge or the journals doesn't sit well with me. Rather than removing the general game discussion and keeping OHR, I'd suggest removing OHR General and keeping General Game Discussion while also converting the OHR Help to a General Help. Given that the community is primarily OHR Centric, I expect the majority of Game Discussion and Help topics will center around the OHR while still keeping the site open to non-OHR discussion. Without this broadened scope, where would the_dude257 ask for help with his exploits in FreeBasic, Game Maker, and pyGames for his various Olim Games?

In removing OHR General Discussion, though, is it acceptable to have Announcement posts go in a General Game Discussion board? I have no intention of opening up the Soapbox thread creation to all registered users. Moderators would be able to move important threads (contest announcements, Hamster Speak releases, OHR updates, and new site releases like HamsterWheel.net) into the Soapbox. The duplicity of Announcements and Soapbox is one thing I've really hated about our current forum setup.

My proposed forum setup looks like this:

Castle Paradox
- The Soapbox - Preaching to the choir since 2002
- Games - From design and development to announcements and discussion
- Creative Corner - Right Brain Appreciation board
- HELP! - I need somebody...(not just anybody)
- Paradox Lounge - Shaken, not stirred
- Site Suggestions - Because no one is perfect
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jabbercat
Composer




Joined: 04 Sep 2003
Posts: 823
Location: Oxford

PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems sensible, and well though out, I second that.
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Moogle1
Scourge of the Seas
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Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 3377
Location: Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your scheme looks good for the most part, but...

Inferior Minion wrote:
- HELP! - I need somebody...(not just anybody)


It's unclear if this forum is for people whose parents are getting a divorce or for people who can't get their menu script to work right. Similarly, "Paradox Lounge" isn't obviously a general discussion area.
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Inferior Minion
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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moogle1 wrote:
Your scheme looks good for the most part, but...

Inferior Minion wrote:
- HELP! - I need somebody...(not just anybody)


It's unclear if this forum is for people whose parents are getting a divorce or for people who can't get their menu script to work right. Similarly, "Paradox Lounge" isn't obviously a general discussion area.


The "ambiguity" issues I plan to alleviate by expecting confused users to read the descriptions associated with each board. I was being "cute" in my previous post...the descriptions I used there would most definitely not be the descriptions used when implemented (although the Game Discussion blurb wasn't too bad).

Regarding the Help, as I mentioned before, I do not want to restrict the help board to only plotscripting/coding issues.

Cheers,

~IM
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