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RedMaverickZero
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 Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 5:47 pm Post subject: Final Dungeons... |
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What in you, the community's mind, and players of tons of games believe is essential to a Final Dungeon? Puzzles? Really hard enimies? Speak up and tell me here.
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The Wobbler
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| Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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Ssalamanderr
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| Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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I find atmosphere is important. I don't want just another dungeon. It has to be special.
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Velduanga
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| Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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This might not work in all cases, but Irreversibility gives a great kick to final levels. Ex: Final Fantasy 6, portion of Kefkas Tower which if the triggers are activated, theres no going back. Enemies shouldnt be hard persay, but it is always nice to see surprisingly new enemies, ones that have attacks or sprites that havent been seen anywhere else in the game.
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Shadowiii
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| Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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Golden Sun.
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LeRoy_Leo
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| Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:43 am Post subject: |
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Me, being a person who has never found time to play the FF games or any other RPG, I know what I am looking for in a dungeon by instinct. I believe that a final dungeon should be the most interactive of all dungeons, but not too interactive. So, any place that introduces new playing methods, like maybe swimming for the first time in the game or walking through fire.
Something surprising. Not like some dungeons, such as some Zelda ones that combine all of the past elements of the game that you already saw (maybe to test what you've learned). The Zeldas for 64, anyway. As for some of the other games (RPGs especially) I haven't played through them yet, and probobly never will.  
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JSH357
Joined: 02 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 5:01 am Post subject: |
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You can leave FF6's final dungeon by casting Warp.
I like final dungeons with save points right before the last boss. The original three Final Fantasy games were really annoying because you had to beat six bosses in a row just to get to the final enemy. |
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Aethereal
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Joined: 04 Jan 2003
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Location: Gone! I pop in on occasion though.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 5:08 am Post subject: |
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I don't think Golden Sun's final dungeon was too spectacular, although the music set an incredible mood... (I'm assuming you're referring to the second game's end dungeon, as the first game's final dungeon is just a less-fancy version, and the two games should really be considered one). Anyway, one of my favorite final dungeons is the one in Suikoden II simply because the atmosphere is perfect. The end of the war is nearing, you're about to win, and all you have to do is find [SPOILER] and [SPOILER] in the castle and claim victory, and the castle is as dead and quiet as a ghost town because of your siege effort. I love it. (Oh, and the music is good, too.)
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Sephyroth
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| Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 9:21 am Post subject: |
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PHC said: | Quote: | | Puzzles are always a plus, as long as there aren't any hard random battles to interrupt the puzzle solving. This always makes me sick in professional games. |
Random battles in puzzles always break my concentration. I think most professional games pull this off quite well, actually, like Lufia 2 and Xenogears.
Leroy Leo said: | Quote: | | So, any place that introduces new playing methods, like maybe swimming for the first time in the game or walking through fire. |
NO!! > !!! If anything, the last dungeon should introduce NOTHING new gameplay-wise. Rather, it should be a culmination of gameplay elements from previous areas in the game utilized in such a way that the player has the resort to all the tricks that he had to learn earlier in the game (BUT NOTHING NEW). Like you said, Zelda games do this quite well.
Final Fantasy 6 also follows this principle, because the main gimmick of the final dungeon (having your party split up into multiple groups) has been used several times earlier in the game.
Sephyroth's own opinion is: | Quote: | | The last dungeon should be a culmination of elements from previous areas in the game. Most RPGs' final dungeons are fairly straightforward, but I'll put up more of the interesting ones as examples. Zelda games, and FF6 do this well, as Leo had said. Final Fantasy 8 had an interesting final dungeon that fit quite nicely with the overall game system, as you get all of your junction commands sealed up. Mega Man games also have final levels that force you to have utilize everything that you've learned from previous areas (exemplified by the part before each final boss where you have to fight all the minibosses that you have previously defeated.) |
Right, I agree completely. And might I also add that you are the most awesome person ever? 
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The Wobbler
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 11:30 am Post subject: |
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Sephyroth
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| Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 11:42 am Post subject: |
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I meant that it was a good idea in Xenogears to disable random battles in puzzle areas.
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TwinHamster
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| Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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| In my opinion, the final dungeon doesn't have to be harder than any other dungeon, it just needs to really stand out. You know, special effects, explosions, trap doors, etc. Just look at any good RPG, just about all of them are like that. |
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RedMaverickZero
Three pointed, red disaster!
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Joined: 12 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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Combining all of the techniques you have used throughout the game plus adding in a couple twists is in my opinion a fantastic way to make any dungeon. That's probally why I enjoy playing Zelda so much. But having puzzles that actually make you think are the best. Not just, throw one switch and then something horribly noticable happens. Throw a switch and you have to look for it. Making something that forces the player to go from Point A to Point B is never a lot of fun. Forcing the player to interact with your environment is the best possible way to make a dungeon in general.
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Uncommon
His legend will never die
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| Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Even better, multiple switches that you have to pull in a certain order. |
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Sephyroth
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| Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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TwinHamster: | Quote: | | In my opinion, the final dungeon doesn't have to be harder than any other dungeon, it just needs to really stand out. You know, special effects, explosions, trap doors, etc. Just look at any good RPG, just about all of them are like that. |
Do you really think special effects are what matters in the final dungeon? Also, give some examples of "good" RPGs that have special effects in the final dungeon.
| Quote: | | Not just, throw one switch and then something horribly noticable happens. Throw a switch and you have to look for it. Making something that forces the player to go from Point A to Point B is never a lot of fun. Forcing the player to interact with your environment is the best possible way to make a dungeon in general. |
| Quote: | | Even better, multiple switches that you have to pull in a certain order. |
I prefer not to use switches in any puzzles. At best, you'd have the player go from Point A to Point B, where he finds the Switch, then go to Point C, where he goes through whatever path the Switch opened. At worst, you'd have the player go from Point A to Point B, notice that he couldn't pass through without pressing a switch, then goes to Point C, D, and E looking for said switch, finally finding it at Point F, then travelling back to Point B to go through the opened path.
To settle the puzzle discussion as best as I could, Lufia 2 had excellent puzzles. My 2003 48 hr contest entry also had a few puzzles that I consider to be well designed.
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