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Bob the Hamster
OHRRPGCE Developer
Joined: 22 Feb 2003
Posts: 2526
Location: Hamster Republic (Southern California Enclave)
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 Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:41 pm Post subject: serious discussion on modern/minimalist art |
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I would like to open this thread for serious discussion about modern and/or minimalist art.
I have noticed several recent threads which were apparently posted for no other reason than to make a point about modern art, (a point which I think I missed) and which were all subsequently locked to make some other point about modern art (which I also missed):
"One more time, for the haters"
http://www.castleparadox.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2634
"lol rei"
http://www.castleparadox.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2633
"Art for Art's Sake"
http://www.castleparadox.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2597
Two years ago I visited the Tate Modern art museum in London with my sister. We saw a lot of awesome art there that I really liked, but there was one piece in particular which upset me. I absolutely hated it.
It was just a urinal. The artist had whitewashed it (although it was already white) and then signed it "R. Mutt. 1917"
It really bothered me, but it took me a while to understand and put into words why I hated it. It wasn't just that it was lazy. There were other "sculptures" in the museum that were just "found objects", but some of them seemed cool, and I didn't hate them, although it was obvious the artist had spent no time on them. It didn't hate the urinal because it was ugly. There were other even uglier pieces in the same museum that I absolutely loved. Uglyness, when done right, can be beautiful. It wasn't because it was mildly ofensive. Again, there were other peices in that museum that were downright obscene, but whether I liked them or not, they didn't disgust me in the same way that the "Mutt" urinal did.
The urinal is actually one of the most famous pieces in the Tate Modern museum, precisely because so many people hate it, and because so many people think it is "not art". The fans of the urinal say this proves that it is art, because it accomplishes one of the most important goals of art, which is to provoke an emotional response in the viewer. From that point of view, I have to admit that the piece is sucessful.
That doesn't make me dislike that particular piece any less. I see it as a cynical attack on art, by someone who wants to push a nihilist agenda by pretending to be an artist... but I have to admit that the fact that it forced me to really think about art gives it at least some value (which in my opinion kind of partially invalidates the aforementioned nihilism).
Anyway, I have a more open mind about good modern art now, and I simply ignore bad modern art now, rather than wasting emotional energy on hating it :)
I am curious how others feel about modern art, minimalism, and other related subjects. minimalist games, joke games, and inentionally bad games are very common on the C.P. game list, so I am sure we have plenty of people in the community interested in the subject. |
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The Wobbler
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Posts: 2221
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Note from Castle Paradox Administration: | | This content has been removed by the user. Contact the original author and link them to this post if you wish to view the original content. Only the author can remove the tags hiding this content. |
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Zombie Hunter Green
Keeps on picking the Rayon Launcher
Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 191
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| This is so the wrong forum for this type of discussion. |
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Moogle1
Scourge of the Seas
Halloween 2006 Creativity Winner
Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 3377
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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I'm puzzled by these locked threads. If there were some rule about the content in this forum that they had violated, that would be understandable. Locking it just because it apparently was made in under ten minutes seems arbitrary.
The "marketplace of ideas" applies to the art forum, too: good art will be liked; bad art will not. Why not let us decide?
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Bob the Hamster
OHRRPGCE Developer
Joined: 22 Feb 2003
Posts: 2526
Location: Hamster Republic (Southern California Enclave)
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Zombie Hunter Green wrote: | | This is so the wrong forum for this type of discussion. |
It's the art forum :)
...but if you can suggest a better forum, maybe a moderator can move the thread. |
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Authortim
super bombastic
Joined: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 27
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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I think what Hunter meant to say was that maybe this isn't the right message board for that type of discussion.
Anyways, I think my stuff could probably be considered more Dada than minimalist. Under no possible circumstances could it be construed as real art.
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Oh yeah? Well the jerkstore just called, they're all out of you |
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Friend
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Posts: 235
Location: California
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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Hi,
Coming from a rather "classical" art education background where everything is a logical product of the mind that takes time and effort, this affect the way I see things. The reason for the locking comes much later, I've been seeing that newbies whose works aren't great, but you can sense they're putting effort into it. The responses to their works are really negative. However when someone well-known post comedy art, it's immediately accepted and praised. I'm also seeing signs that only more established users are allowed to make comedy games or art. All I'm trying to do is make it fair to all users. If they can't do it, you can't either.
Back to the works at tate art. I think what's happening today is, "art" is becoming one of the words that's being overused today. It's so easy to claim that pretty much everything can be art. I don't want it to degenerate to that point here.
I'm actually fine with satirical works, I enjoy reading political cartoons now and then. But this?
There's a lot of snide comments are being made by the locked threads. They didn't say it directly, but I understand the gist of the message. Apparently the art forum is being accused of supporting only anime art while marginalizing the rest. There's a slight hint of accusation that I'm supporting this hiearchy. The truth is, I don't. My style isn't even anime; if they're good, they're good, doesn't matter what the style is.
One particular thread is used just to bait me. I'm not here all day, I have school on tuesday thursday from 8AM and won't be back until 6PM. If you make point this way, I don't see you to be any better than any other people who got banned of CP. Baiting and making fun of me will only add fuel to the flame.
I think the fact arfenhouse is popular here has nothing to do with the thread. It prompts the question: "So?"
I have not deleted any of the threads nor have I banned anyone.
Friend,
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"I am Collins. From my position in the moon's orbit, I watched Armstrong and Aldrin land and walk on the surface. I was so close to the ground of the moon, and yet I returned without having trod upon it... I am Collins." -Friend |
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Bob the Hamster
OHRRPGCE Developer
Joined: 22 Feb 2003
Posts: 2526
Location: Hamster Republic (Southern California Enclave)
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 7:24 pm Post subject: Dadaism |
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Ah, yes! Dadaism.
I was kinda using "modern" and "minimalist" as blanket terms for counter-culture art in general, but of course that is bad to do, because as I should know, Dadaists hate to be called artists, A surrealist is a million miles away from an expressionalist, and any Processist will tell you that no matter how much it looks like minimalism, process art is something different entirely.
But since y'all know what I mean, I'll just keep saying "modern" :) |
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Zombie Hunter Green
Keeps on picking the Rayon Launcher
Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 191
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | My style isn't even anime |
hahahah
No really, you arent allowed to hate on the travesty that is modern art and be into anime in the same lifetime. Anime as a subject is nothing more than pop culture, and can't be considered art unless it's combined with some other subject (usually ironicially). If Japanese cartoons get to be an artfrom, than you have to put up with any tomato soup cans and Virgin mary images covered with feces that want to join the club too. Because they paved the way for you. |
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Bob the Hamster
OHRRPGCE Developer
Joined: 22 Feb 2003
Posts: 2526
Location: Hamster Republic (Southern California Enclave)
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Friend wrote: | Coming from a rather "classical" art education background where everything is a logical product of the mind that takes time and effort, this affect the way I see things. The reason for the locking comes much later, I've been seeing that newbies whose works aren't great, but you can sense they're putting effort into it. The responses to their works are really negative. However when someone well-known post comedy art, it's immediately accepted and praised. I'm also seeing signs that only more established users are allowed to make comedy games or art. All I'm trying to do is make it fair to all users. If they can't do it, you can't either.
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I couldn't agree with you more-- although if it was up to me, I would suggest that encouraging constructive feedback for newbies is better than supressing feedback for veterans who are being silly.
I would submitt that it is better to just ignore such threads. I know I (usually) do :)
| Friend wrote: |
Back to the works at tate art. I think what's happening today is, "art" is becoming one of the words that's being overused today. It's so easy to claim that pretty much everything can be art. I don't want it to degenerate to that point here.
I'm actually fine with satirical works, I enjoy reading political cartoons now and then. But this?
There's a lot of snide comments are being made by the locked threads. They didn't say it directly, but I understand the gist of the message. Apparently the art forum is being accused of supporting only anime art while marginalizing the rest. There's a slight hint of accusation that I'm supporting this hiearchy. The truth is, I don't. My style isn't even anime; if they're good, they're good, doesn't matter what the style is.
One particular thread is used just to bait me. I'm not here all day, I have school on tuesday thursday from 8PM and won't be back until 6PM. If you make point this way, I don't see you to be any better than any other people who got banned of CP. Baiting and making fun of me will only add fuel to the flame.
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I hope my posting of this thread was not interpreted as making fun of you. I find the subject of what defines good/bad art a very interesting one, and I referenced the locked threads because they were what brought the subject to my mind.
Anyway, Friend, having seen your pixel art, I have *enormous* respect for you as an artist, and greatly value your input to this discussion :)
sudden thought: A lot of people would consider pixel art and low color art to be modern art (using my aforemention overly borad definition), granted a very different kind. I am thinking maybe one thing that makes pixel art so awesome is that the artist is working under strict limitations imposed by the medium while still holding oneself up to high standards of aestetics, whereas in other some forms of modern art, the artists has no limitations, but largely ignores aestetics. The end result either way could be considered "degraded", ...but I know which one I like best! |
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The Wobbler
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Posts: 2221
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Note from Castle Paradox Administration: | | This content has been removed by the user. Contact the original author and link them to this post if you wish to view the original content. Only the author can remove the tags hiding this content. |
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Bob the Hamster
OHRRPGCE Developer
Joined: 22 Feb 2003
Posts: 2526
Location: Hamster Republic (Southern California Enclave)
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Zombie Hunter Green wrote: |
No really, you arent allowed to hate on the travesty that is modern art and be into anime in the same lifetime. Anime as a subject is nothing more than pop culture, and can't be considered art unless it's combined with some other subject (usually ironicially). If Japanese cartoons get to be an artfrom, than you have to put up with any tomato soup cans and Virgin mary images covered with feces that want to join the club too. Because they paved the way for you. |
Not allowed? I think one is free to like whatever one likes. There is no rule that says we have to be consistent :)
Since I gave an example of a piece of modern art I hate, let me also give an example of a somewhat similar piece that I love.
A few weeks ago, I walked into my sculpture class, to find the Teacher standing in front of the kiln with a can of turpentine in one hand, and one of those long barbecue lighters in the other. Inside the kiln was, not clay, but a wooden chair. A fairly ughly one with an angular seat and a straight uncomfortable looking back. The wood was finished, but pretty plain looking.
As I watched my teacher splash turpentine on the chair and set it alight, he explained that it was for a fundraiser of sorts that he was participating in. You see, teaching sculpture and pottery is just his day-job. His real profession is modern art (Process Art, if you want to be specific). He was invited, along with a bunch of other local artists to decorate a chair to be auctioned off to benefit somehing or-other. I have seen this sort of fundraiser before. I remember one that involved painting life sized fiberglass cows.
Anyway, they had a set of rules about what could and could not be done to the chair (they wanted to make sure it wouldn't stain clothing, for example) and he lamented being "put in a box". The chair really was pretty ugly, and there wasn't much you could do to it without breaking their rules other than painting it, which wouldn't have helped much.
So he had decided to break the rules a bit, and burn the chair. If they rejected it, hey, he was just out the price of a wooden chair.
Having some pyromania experience of my own, I hung around and helped him burn it, first with lighter fluid and turpentine, then with piles and piles of dry pine needles. Finally he removed it, just before it totally lost structural integrety and crumbled, and we hosed it down in the courtyard.
It was beautiful!
Later that night, I remember the urinal in the Tate, and wondered if my liking the burnt chair invalidated my disliking of the whitewashed urinal. Maybe I just liked it because I had been present to see the transformation. But I can't imagine liking the urinal any better if I had watched the good Mr "Mutt" (was that his real name? does anybody know?) whitewash the thing with my own eyes. I could rationalize that the fire brought out the natural grain in the wood, and made both the shape and color of the chair more organic... but REALLY, I don't think either of those rationalizations is rock-solid, and I am totally content to both admire the chair and despise the urinal. |
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Zombie Hunter Green
Keeps on picking the Rayon Launcher
Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 191
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Let me rephrase that. You can't like anime and hate modern art without being a total hypocrite. |
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Bob the Hamster
OHRRPGCE Developer
Joined: 22 Feb 2003
Posts: 2526
Location: Hamster Republic (Southern California Enclave)
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 8:18 pm Post subject: hypocrite |
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| Zombie Hunter Green wrote: | | Let me rephrase that. You can't like anime and hate modern art without being a total hypocrite. |
Hypocrisy is bad in most situations, but in some things, like art, I don't think it does any harm at all. |
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Friend
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Posts: 235
Location: California
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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I don't HATE modern art, but that doesn't mean I have to like all of them.
_________________
"I am Collins. From my position in the moon's orbit, I watched Armstrong and Aldrin land and walk on the surface. I was so close to the ground of the moon, and yet I returned without having trod upon it... I am Collins." -Friend |
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