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Castle Paradox
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Iblis
Ghost Cat
Joined: 26 May 2003
Posts: 1233
Location: Your brain
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 Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Are they about what you said differentiates them from "other artforms": interactive and obstacles or challenges? |
That depends on what you mean by "what games are about." My statement of interactivity and obstacles was a statement of what games are. I will await your description of exactly what you mean by "what games are about" and then give you an answer.
| Quote: | | If a game is never played, would it still be a game? |
Yes. To me, a game is a game because of what it is. Whether or not anyone plays it doesn't matter.
| Quote: | | I just really don't AT ALL think that the point of a game has anything to do with the creator. |
I asked before and you didn't answer: would you ever create a game that was worthless to you?
The creator won't be particularly important from the point of view of the player in most cases, but the creator is still important to the game and of course to the creator themself. You're just looking at things from the point of view of the player.
| Quote: | | When you take interactivity and add a challenge, I just feel that there is entertainment. |
I will cease debating this point now because your argument is not based on anything.
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JSH357
Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 1705
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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I hate how it's Leroy's fault a meaningful debate started.
HAY GUYS THEREZ ALIENS WITH THE SAME STUFF WE JUST MADE ALREADY |
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The Drizzle
Who is the Drizzle?
Joined: 12 Nov 2003
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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UNCOMMON:
| Quote: | | A feeling is a poor thing to support an argument with. |
The same thing supports your argument-- your personal feelings on the issue. We're in an argument that involves opinion. Opinions are personal feelings usually backed up by evidence, and in my case, I feel that I've had to offer a lot of it. Really, you saying that games are art isn't a fact either. It's a feeling as well. What I could've said is "When you take interactivity and add a challenge, you get entertainment." It's not a fact though, so what's wrong with me saying, I feel that [blank]. There's nothing wrong with it. In fact a lot of arguments are based on feelings.
| Quote: | | Apparently not, since neither Iblis or I got that. |
I understand why it may have been unclear, but I'll quote myself anyway.
| Quote: | I guess, then, that my argument would be that interactivity as it exists in games, is entertaining.
I said my opinion about game interactivity above. |
I mean, I thought I was being pretty clear about that but I suppose I was wrong. What I meant was that there's a difference between interactivity and interactivity as it exists in games because in games the interactivity is competitive.
| Quote: | | I'm not known for being a nice guy. |
Well, I don't really know you, so how was I supposed to know.
| Quote: | Might I put an emphasis on electronic games? I'm pretty sure I already have (see the boldened words), but you might've missed that. The fact is, I have been talking about electronic games this whole time. The whole thing was about electronic games. We are designers of electronic games, this is a community centered around designing electronic games. Using non-electronic games in this debate is pretty much arguing semantics, since we never really touched the subject. And, yes, I do consider electronic gaming to be an artform, and I guess that would make all electronic games art, as far as I care. Note, of course, that bad art is still art.
Non-electronic games, eh, it's a whole other argument. |
I've been talking about non-electronic games from the start. I said games on their most level and I used examples like tag and what not. Why would I even include tag if I weren't talking about non-electronic games. I've mentioned from the beginning that I've been talking about games on their most base level. If we're not talking about ALL games, then what are we arguing about?
| Quote: | | You're arguing semantics here. Must always implies that it fails if it isn't entertaining. |
I never said that movies must always entertain. If I did then I mispoke, I meant that movies are about entertainment. Even when the primary goal of the director isn't to entertain, the medium is one of entertainment. Angles and coverage make something interesting. The director decides what the audience should see and even if he tries to make something that is boring and it succeeds at the director's goal of being boring, it doesn't change that movies are about entertainment.
| Quote: | | And just because people see movies to be entertained doesn't mean that movies are made to be entertaining or that movies are about entertainment. |
I respectfully disagree. The players are the MOST important aspect of a game. Without players, where is the game? I mean, I could say that games are about the players, but I was going for concepts really. And I think the reason people play games is for competition and entertainment. Which is why I say that these are what games are about.
IBLIS:
| Quote: | | That depends on what you mean by "what games are about." My statement of interactivity and obstacles was a statement of what games are. I will await your description of exactly what you mean by "what games are about" and then give you an answer. |
Why are games around? I just don't think that the point of a game's existence is for the creator of a game.
| Quote: | | Yes. To me, a game is a game because of what it is. Whether or not anyone plays it doesn't matter. |
A game that is never played has no obstacles. If they're are never overcome and no one ever attempts to overcome them. So how are they obstacles?
| Quote: | | I asked before and you didn't answer: would you ever create a game that was worthless to you? |
Of course not. But I don't think this is one of the main reasons that games are around.
| Quote: | | The creator won't be particularly important from the point of view of the player in most cases, but the creator is still important to the game and of course to the creator themself. You're just looking at things from the point of view of the player. |
Of course I am. Games are played. As far as I'm concerned, the second a game is finished, the creator is out of the picture.
| Quote: | | I will cease debating this point now because your argument is not based on anything. |
I've been debating you the whole time and you'd pretty much given me an argument based on nothing until you said that games are about interactivity and obstacles/challenges. Here's what my argument is: When you add competition to interaction, it becomes a source of entertainment. How is that not based in anything? I'm doing the dishes with my sister and we say whoever finishes the most dishes by the time we're done is the king of dishwashers, this is an attempt by the two of us to entertain ourselves by competing in dishwashing.
There, now it's based in something.
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The Drizzle
Who is the Drizzle?
Joined: 12 Nov 2003
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I will cease debating this point now because your argument is not based on anything. |
Have you ceased debating entirely or just that point? Because I feel like I've explained my reasoning for my opinion.
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The shake-zula, the mic rulah, the old schoola, you wanna trip? I'll bring it to yah... |
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Iblis
Ghost Cat
Joined: 26 May 2003
Posts: 1233
Location: Your brain
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| Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Have you ceased debating entirely or just that point? |
Well, at the time I was just refering to that point, but really, I don't care about this debate enough to continue. Maybe Unc will still debate with you.
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Uncommon
His legend will never die
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 2503
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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First:
| The Drizzle wrote: | | When you add competition to interaction, it becomes a source of entertainment. |
Why?
Second:
I get it now. You're mistaking it's potential to entertain for a purpose that every game/film should have. But the very fact that not all games/films entertain is better evidence than anything else that it isn't about entertainment. If it were all about entertainment, then every game/film would be entertaining.
Third:
A feeling shouldn't ever be all you use to back something up. That feeling should always have a reason behind it, especially if you're ever going to try to debate the point behind the feeling. |
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Iblis
Ghost Cat
Joined: 26 May 2003
Posts: 1233
Location: Your brain
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| Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:37 am Post subject: |
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Okay, I know this thread is specifically about Leroy's review, but I didn't feel like making a new thread for Shadow's review.
It seems to be mixed up with a Janken-Janken review, and it doesn't appear on the new review list. :(
I like the review though. :)
My only annoyance with the review aside from the stuff above is just how you always refer to walkabout sprites as "NPCs," regardless of whether or not the sprites actually belong to NPCs. Not a big deal, it just kinda bugs me.
I should probably play The Fox and the Eight-Six at some point.
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Shadowiii
It's been real.
Joined: 14 Feb 2003
Posts: 2460
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| Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:54 am Post subject: |
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CP hates me now. I'll try to fix it soon enough.
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But enough talk, have at you! |
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Uncommon
His legend will never die
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 2503
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| Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Maybe it just doesn't like you accepting your own reviews? Anyway, next time you write a review I'll try accepting it and see if it doesn't screw up. Now, it could always just be that CP's review system doesn't like people breaking 55, but we'll have to try this and see. |
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morbidchylde
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Posts: 5
Location: Tacoma, WA (USA)
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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Some interesting articles on game design and playing games: http://www.sirlin.net/articles
In any case, I think the point of all games (and all art, for that matter) is to provide an experience. All sound, graphics, story (or lack thereof), etc. should be centered around this experience. The experience itself can be incredibly complex or quite simple, greatly entertaining or intentionally boring, etc. so long as all other elements of design are created to enhance this experience.
Look at the original Zelda game: everything in that game has been designed to provide the experience that you are this adventurer braving dungeons across the land to rescue the princess. There isn't a huge backstory or tons of in-game text to flesh out the story, there isn't a bunch of cut-scenes or fancy special effects, etc. yet the game is easy to understand and fun to play. The game is an experience.
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Moogle1
Scourge of the Seas
Halloween 2006 Creativity Winner
Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 3377
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 7:16 am Post subject: |
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A. Your post is well-formulated; however,
2. This thread is more than a year dead and
III. Your post has little to do with the topic anyhow.
In a situation like this, you might want to just create a new topic.
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morbidchylde
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Posts: 5
Location: Tacoma, WA (USA)
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| Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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LoL Yeah, I just noticed that. It was pretty close to the top of the topic list so I guess I just assumed it had to be fairly recent. I guess that's what I get for not paying closer attention. :p This forum doesn't see much action anymore, does it?
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"Today is victory over yourself of yesterday, tomorrow is victory over lesser men." - Miyamoto Musashi |
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