Castle Paradox

[Squall]

To the aspiring artist who insists on using MS-Paint.

To the aspiring director who stubbornly defends their technical mistakes.

To the aspiring game maker who continue using the OHR after several years.

You are pissing me off. Stop it. I am a man who is surrounded by so much mediocrity, so much laziness, that when I see someone who loves an art form and wants to be a great artist in that field, I sincerely root for them to succeed. I have been around this community a long time, and I have watched many people begin their path down a skillbuilding road. Their first OHR game, their first crappy anime sketches that called for "constructive criticism," their first dumb little movies they made with their friends (I've been there). But eventually you need to take the next step. Eventually you have to tell yourself "I can do something with this. I can enter this industry." Instead, I hear brilliant people complain about how bad the industry is and how stupid the sucessful works are. It will continue to be this way, until people who want change -- people like you -- enter the industry with their dramatically different work of art. Instead, they bash the artists who are getting paid for it and continue working with their dinky beginner's tools. I understand that the notion that an artist is only as good as their tools is ridiculous, but don't think that ALL you need to succeed is hard work. You need to gamble a little bit. You need to take a step into the deep end and trust in your skill. The least an OHR developer could do is hook up with a copy of Flash and try to develop in the same arena the big boys are. If you're such brilliant game designers, then what's setting you back? I can think of several people who frustrate me every time they post about making games, because they are so much better than a DOS program.

Or maybe it's just a defense mechanism. Maybe they believe that they can give the impression that they're "retro" and too artsy to develop for something which allows more than 320x200 resolution. Maybe they enjoy working with the limitations so much because they know if those limitations were gone, they couldn't compete in the real world. But I am so sick of seeing games that are great -- for a DOS game. For the love of God, if you are serious about game design, if you honestly think you can do it, then quit practicing and do it! Look around you, there are people who have been here for almost ten years. They're the ones complaining about how immature the other posters are because they don't realize they're in a community for a beginner's game developing program. And what do they have to show for it? I don't care if it's the best game the OHR has ever seen, prove to me that you can adapt and survive in this world. When you get out of high school or college or wherever, where will you be? You HAVE to work at something to be good at it, and you ARE working hard. Why can't you be working hard to develop a project which more than 300 people will see? Why can't you be working on a project which someone can see on a portfolio site without a long text file which describes how to play OHR games. Why can't you be creating artwork which is scanned and inked. The only thing separating you from being professional is you acting professional. Honestly, think about a portfolio. Think about a resume. I can't stand to see these people with an enormous skill feeling defeated because they can't get a job doing it. Is this sort of thinking really so strange? Am I really posting radical thoughts here? If you believe you can take this past the hobby level, then just step on the gas pedal and do it!

Someone will probably question my credentials for posting this. I spent some time with the OHR, but then I realized it wasn't what I wanted to do. I started pursuing filmmaking. I made a few bad movies with my friends -- just like the first 10 games you will make will suck, so will the first 10 movies -- but then I decided that I wanted to be professional. I worked my butt off to buy a high-end camera. I got with my church and started making videos for them. This got my ability out in the open around my city, and I was soon getting projects from other people. It started with vounteer work, but then I started getting paid for it. While developing my technical skill at my church, I approached the basketball coach at my high school and asked to make a highlight video for him. At the end of the year, it showed to about 200 people and I got rave reviews. Later on, some of those people asked me to do some work for them, which got me more money. I got a job at a television station. I went to a national competition for video production. I started filming weddings and children's sports games and I actually made back the money that the camera cost. Today, I'm going to college, where I actually get opportunities to work on professional film shoots. I'm working with a company in Japan to do motion graphics, and for the summer, I'm doing an internship at a local filmmaking company in town. I'm not a success story -- yet. But when I think where I would have been if I hadn't started pushing for being professional...even if I did it a year later...it makes me sick.

So, whether it's game development, writing, art, filmmaking, graphic design, web design or whatever. If you know what you want to do, just make the choice. You'll thank yourself later.

[Artimus Bena]

My reply to this would be, to each his own. Those of us who are not motivated enough to get past ohr, probably aren't "meant" to, and shouldn't. If it was passion for these people you are addressing then they would be doing what you're doing now.

Stupidity is its own reward. If these people you are addressing are content with mediocrity, then they won't be successful, case closed. What makes you think a speech will motivate such lame, dispassionate people?


[edit] also, you are laying your disdain upon people who consider this a hobby, as if considering this a hobbie is a bad thing. Again, to each his own. Just be content with your path, and let others be content with theirs. Can't go wrong with that philosohpy; unless they are somehow affecting you personally.
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SACRE BLEU!

|||Compositions!
|||Eldardeen Soundtrack!
|||Red Mercury!

[Iblis]

Although I agree with you, Squall, on all points, there's something you're not considering:

The people who have been using the OHR for so many years and still use it are still beginners, myself very much included.

The talented people in this community can basically be lumped into two groups: those with great ideas they don't finish, and those who finish ideas that aren't great. Neither group is ready for professional game development yet, and everyone who can do both seems to have moved on.

But, definitely we need to get our heads in the game and GET ready for professional game development. It's not a matter of just eventually becoming ready after using the engine for some amount of years, it's a matter of making oneself ready by getting shit done and getting shit done well.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the OHR itself though, unless you want 3D graphics or internet play. It's just that the community has like 20 people in it and those are the only ones who'll see your game (and several of those probably won't even play it).

[Moogle1]

Your words are harsh!

But they're not incorrect. No one will ever make a direct transition from OHR to The Industry, just like you're not likely to go straight from YouTube to the silver screen.

Me? I haven't decided yet. I have a few game designs that I could take shareware, but I've also considered gathering a portfolio of my musical compositions and applying for a job in that field. (Incidentally, there's nothing keeping me from making high-quality music in an OHR game.) For the time being, I'm employed as a software developer. It's not what I want to do for the next forty years, but it pays well and allows me to continue designing games as a hobby. I see no problem with this.

Actually, the few people who have been here for almost ten years probably don't care about landing a job in game design. Bena is correct that some of us are just making OHR games for fun (although the rest of his post is awful). Most of the games I've made in the past couple of years have been silly, bizarre, and commercially unviable. Take SCHBW, for instance. It's fun, it's a good (terrible) game, but I wouldn't expect it to sell. When I feel like making something that I do plan on selling, I won't make it for the OHR, but the OHR is tailor-made for those concepts that you can turn into games in ten hours but you could never sell.
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Slime Salad :: Independent Game Design

[Artimus Bena]

Forgive me if my comments were unnecessarily negative. I'm having troubles in the real world, and it's not unlikely that my attitudes reflect this.

However, I have thought about the same things squall. It's something I've discussed with tmc, since I talk with him a lot these days. Most of us, including myself, have been guilty of trapping ourselves within CP, and it is truly a mediocre action. I've promised tmc that when our project is finished, I will not simply release it here and be done with it. I'm going to show it to as many people as possible, and spread it outward. Sticking around ain't so bad. It's a good springboard. Keeping our creativity locked up in here, that's not so good.
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SACRE BLEU!

|||Compositions!
|||Eldardeen Soundtrack!
|||Red Mercury!

[msw188]

I think that I agree with Iblis, in that most if not all of the people here are still beginners. I am not sure that I've seen more than five games ever on the OHR (whether finished or not) that could pass for attempts at commercially sellable games. However, I do believe that the OHR is capable of creating games as 'good' (whatever 'good' means) as any NES or SNES RPG, and these are usually among the most revered RPGs of all time. There's no reason that an aspiring game developer cannot stick with the OHR and release such a great game in CP, as long as they also release it elsewhere, and following along Squall's lines, use it to start (or add to) a portfolio. I think the biggest danger in sticking with CP is the risk of becoming too satisfied with 'jokes' and 'cleverness' at the expense of actual gameplay. These things have their merits, but I think that most will agree that a great game should be more than mere humor, however clever.

That said, I have never thought of game design for myself as any more than a hobby.
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My first completed OHR game, Tales of the New World:
http://castleparadox.com/gamelist-display.php?game=161

This website link is for my funk/rock band, Euphonic Brew:
www.euphonicbrew.com

[Calehay]

[Camdog]

The notion that this is a hobby, not a career path, for some people has already been addressed, so I'll skip that. Other points:

Flash is not what the "big boys" use. Flash is a great tool for developing web games and movies, and that's about it. Sure, there's been lots of talk about how casual games are shaking up the industry, but the lions share of business still go to game developers, mostly working on console games or MMORPGs, who never touch Flash. If you really want to develop with the "big boys", get C++ and start developing with OpenGl or something along those lines. Of course, even with the big boy tools, you're never going to make the next Halo. That takes hundreds of people years to create, which is why Indy games tend to be more on par with what the OHR can do.

And, of course, Flash costs hundreds of dollars, so obtaining a copy is a touch more than the least we can do. (If anyone is interested in developing web games without paying or pirating, I suggest Java. It's more progamming oriented than Flash, but just as powerful if you can wrap your brain around it.)

[msw188]

A little off-topic I guess, but I wanted to mention that Friend's Missing's landing in Indygamer's top 20 was news to me, and since I saw a post of his recently, I wanted to extend my congratulations to him (awfully late, I suppose). I will admit I was surprised, but it goes to show (as most of us have been saying) that the OHR is actually quite a capable engine and game made on it could hold their own on a portfolio. Let us not forget that some people going into the business of game design will never touch any graphical (or musical, or any other specific) aspect of a game at all. There are certain game design skills which the OHR fosters that, on a broad enough level, are EXACTLY what professionals need (methods of balancing challenge versus frustration, creating an engaging plot and/or character, plenty more I'm sure...). I'm not sure if anyone here though seriously wants to go into professional game design.
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My first completed OHR game, Tales of the New World:
http://castleparadox.com/gamelist-display.php?game=161

This website link is for my funk/rock band, Euphonic Brew:
www.euphonicbrew.com

[Ysoft_Entertainment]

Really Squall, if OHR pisses you off so much, there is no reason for you to stay here. I can find sever reasons to use it.

1. Its free
2. It easy to use
3. Plotscript is easy to understand
4. Its still in development, someday it may even be on par with rpg maker, rpg toolkit, and such.

The limitation is only your imagination. Sure right now there might be some limits, but the development staff are working hard to remove them. Wait couple more years and you will see what OHR can really do.

Just because the game industry switched to 3d doesn't mean that you have to follow. I, for one, don't like 3d games. To me they don't show any appeal. Give me a 2d game and I will be happy. To each his own I guess.
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Try my OHR exporter/importer.
OHRGFX
Striving to become better pixel artist then Fenrir Lunaris. Unfortunately the laziness gets in the way of my goals.

[Friend]

Ermm, thanks I was surprised to find my game on indygamer's top 20 as well as getting a decent review on freehare.com. I was almost certain nobody outside the OHR community played it.

Let me just say that I understand where Squall is going. But honestly, you don't have to be in the biz to be serious about game design. What about Pixel's Cave Story or GR3's La-Mulana? They're both excellent freeware titles, and dare I say, more enjoyable than gazillion other multimillion racing/sports games "the big boys" are producing. I'm pretty sure if pixel decided to sell the game, people will buy it despite the retro appeal. I know I would. I could've SWORN I heard that a certain company has earned the license to publish Cave Story on PSP, what happened to that anyway?

Second of all, retro games are still marketable in the indie gaming scene. Dave Gilbert's rabbinical adventure game, The Shivah, is doing pretty good at Manifesto games. He even got complimented by the creator of Trinity (old Infocom game.) I'm pretty sure his new game, The Blackwell Legacy is doing okay too. Just so that you know, The Shivah's resolution is 320x200 AND pixel based. Just the same as OHR. There are a bunch of other commercial retro games with low-res graphics.

And you can think that I'm making excuses, but I _LOVE_ doing pixel art. The reason I'm sticking with pixel art and retro games is the same reason why the interactive fiction community still exist. Because they love it and enjoy makign text adventure games. You might think that nobody would care about text adventure games today... but you are wrong. The interactive fiction community as a whole, is the single LARGEST game-making community in the world. You may think that interactive fiction don't get that much coverage either, but you'd be wrong. Dead wrong. Interactive fiction still gets coverage on mainstream gaming magazines and websites. Well, so okay, fine, making money out of IF is nearly impossible by now, but hey, these people love what they're doing. Is that wrong?

Orchard,
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"I am Collins. From my position in the moon's orbit, I watched Armstrong and Aldrin land and walk on the surface. I was so close to the ground of the moon, and yet I returned without having trod upon it... I am Collins." -Friend

[Rinku]

I agree with Friend/Orchard-L, but let me add a few things.

Plenty of Ohrrpgce games have been seen by more than 300 people; Missing has over 25,000 downloads now (just from my server alone, not sure about from this site or the half-dozen sites that mirror the game), and it's only been out since last August. Likewise Alphasix (made in Game Maker, also a game engine, by myself and Orchard-L/Friend) has over 100,000 downloads -- which really surprised me as I was thinking it'd get 5000 at most.

It's not true that shareware is suicide and only leads to $64. There are plenty of people who are making a living -- some, a good living -- selling shareware games. There are only about a dozen of them who make more than $100k a year, admittedly, so it won't make you a millionaire, but there are hundreds of shareware game developers who are making money selling shareware -- some a living, some just a few thousand dollars a year. *Without* paid advertisement, note. So I think that's a far better "next step" than looking for a job in the industry.

Of course, trying to sell shareware with a bad game *is* suicide -- plenty of people only get 1 or 2 sales a month. But if your games are *good*, and if you are persistent and don't give up after a single game, it's not suicide. I know of at least 20-30 individuals who survive mostly or solely on sales of their shareware games, including a few who make RPGs (Spiderweb Software, Amaranth Games, Moonpod, Hanako Games etc.). Plenty of them use engines too -- Amaranth's well-selling RPG Aveyond was made in RPG Maker XP, Hanako's also well-selling (and recently gone retail in the UK) semi-RPG Cute Knight was made in Game Maker.

It's not true that being a professional means working for EA or Lionhead, you can be a professional while working for yourself, making the games you want to make rather than the games that producers tell you to make.
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Tower Defense Game

[AdrianX]

..dude,ive been working as a game designer for a professional game development company here in my country for over 5 months.after that i decided to not be just a game designer but an artist too,still within the same gamedev company.in total,ive been working as a "professional" game developer for over 8 months;and still,i love the ohr.
it's not because im stuck with it (heck,i have my hands on great engines we've been using here in the company), but because even though we're making all kinds of games here using advanced technologies,only a few (or maybe only me) knows how to appreciate/make "retro" games.
don't get me wrong,on my own i can definitely create my own current/next gen game similar to what we've been doing here.but for me,knowing that plenty of my colleagues(and other people) praise me for making retro games when they cant,is an honor.
EDIT: forgot to mention,most of the materials in my portfolio that i submitted when i applied for my job right now are OHR - based. having exprience in developing games instead of what kind of games i can make was their basis.truly,OHR helped me a lot.

[Nathan Karr]

I feel largely like this is a personal attack against myself, wich is obviously stupid and egotistigal of me. You see, I use MSPaint because, despite all my searching, I have never found even one free art program nearly as good(besides the one built into the OHRRPGCE). Also, as an artist I prefer Crayola crayons to any other method of filling in my #2 pencil drawings. The only kind of art more satisfying for me than that is 8-bit pixel art(by which I mean the sort that would go in an NES game). As a storyteller, I prefer to make every possible element of my story cliche, and often follow suit with my character/magic/equipment design. I can respect people who want to be original, I just won't enjoy their games as much.

By the way, I'll have been with the OHR for five years this november.
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[Battleblaze]

Nathan wtf are you talking about? i've been ehre since 2003 but really I'm still a noob.

Hey Suall, I'm aspiring director/filmaker too .

I like OHR because its easy and quick way to realise my ideas.I get a story in my head and soem art direction. WHat can I do?

a) Buy some pro engine that I don't know how to use make a crapserpiece and get upset.

b) Get RPG Maker...lord no...

c)Use a program that is easy to get results from. Weave my story and work with what I have and actually see my ideas come to life. Isn't that whats it's all about?
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Indy OHR! and National OHR Month Contest going on now!

"Aeth calls PHC an anti-semite; PHC blames anti-semitism"
-squall