Castle Paradox

[RelicMaker]

Hi, me again. So I noticed when I was editing the tilemap for one of my maps a certain specific tile didnt actually lay a tile, it placed a little 0 instead. Thinking it was something with the editor I went to test it. Not only does that tile not appear, where it should be is impassable, even though I havnt even set the wallmap yet!
I also have a trickling stream on the floor that is acting as a wall, even though it should just be a little decoration on the floor.
I'm recycling Vikings of Midgard graphics to use as placeholders while my artist works on other stuff. The tiles I'm having trouble with are the ones from the cave tileset: specifically the bottom border thingy of the cave wall (thats the one that appears as 0s in the editor) and the little streams and pools of water

[RelicMaker]

Nevermind. I went exploring and found out that those tiles are set as impassable by default. Now I feel silly: wish I had looked around a bit before doing posting

[TMC]

Vikings of Midgard uses overhead tiles (the ones marked with O's) because it's quite old. Overhead tiles are obsolete now though and it's recommended that you not use them (use layers instead). They are marked with O's even in tilemap editing mode because if you forget you placed them it can be really confusing.

[RelicMaker]

No, the tiles I was having trouble with were set as overhead and had their default passability set.

[Rya.Reisender]

[TMC]

Well it can be less work because you don't have to keep switching between layers. Suggestions for making layers easier to use are always welcome.

But if you later decide that you want to do something that requires layers -- using transparency or stacking multiple tiles or layered effects like clouds -- then you'll need to go through the hassle of converting your overhead tiles into layers.
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[Rya.Reisender]

Why? I just used a combination of both. For overhead I use O but for transparency I use layers (like placing a vase on the floor).
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Snippy:
"curt or sharp, esp. in a condescending way" (Oxford American Dictionary)
"fault-finding, snappish, sharp" (Concise Oxford Dictionary, UK)
1. short-tempered, snappish, 2. unduly brief or curt (Merriam-Webster Dictionary)

[TMC]

Well OK. I wish I had a great reason not to use overhead tiles but I don't -- it's annoying to have the complexity of having multiple ways to do something.
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"It is so great it is insanely great."

[Rya.Reisender]

Pressing "O" is just one click, layers is just more work and only really needed for transparency anyway. Unless you want to make something like clouds that move faster than the remaining tiles and cover the heroes half.
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Snippy:
"curt or sharp, esp. in a condescending way" (Oxford American Dictionary)
"fault-finding, snappish, sharp" (Concise Oxford Dictionary, UK)
1. short-tempered, snappish, 2. unduly brief or curt (Merriam-Webster Dictionary)

[Bob the Hamster]

The main trouble with O tiles is that they move the layer zero tile to be displayed on top of all other layers.

So if you are working with a single-layer map, O will always be more convenient, but if you are working with a multilayer map, O can be a headache, especially when making modifications to existing parts of the map.

This has bit me frequently in Wandering Hamster, since all the maps were originally single-layer with lots of O tiles, and later I wanted to go in and add layers for things.

I suggest only using O tiles if you know for certain that the map will *never* have layers in the future, or if you are certain that this is your final draft of the map and you won't be moving buildings, adding/deleting passageways, etc.

[Rya.Reisender]

But that only means you can't use "O" on tiles where you want to put something else on top. I don't think this happens often with O-tiles. They are usually the upper half of a building or wall, why would you want to place a tile on top of those?

Maybe you are using layers for something I can't currently imagine, but I usually do it for: A made a statue and sometimes want to place it on grass and sometimes on stone. Previously I'd need to have made the statue one time for grass and one time for stone, now I can just make a grass tile, a stone tile and a statue and place the statue on top of the other tiles. I can still set the upper half of the statue to "O". It doesn't really cause trouble or does it?
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Snippy:
"curt or sharp, esp. in a condescending way" (Oxford American Dictionary)
"fault-finding, snappish, sharp" (Concise Oxford Dictionary, UK)
1. short-tempered, snappish, 2. unduly brief or curt (Merriam-Webster Dictionary)

[TMC]

But a statue is a good example where you wouldn't use overhead tiles, because statues aren't normally perfectly square blocks.

Plenty of people (the same people who complain that 8 layers aren't enough) also use layers for composing tiles out of smaller pieces, for example you might draw vines and place them on a wall instead creating a version of the wall with a vine on that. That way you can have different types of walls and other decals like graffiti.
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"It is so great it is insanely great."

[BMR]

As one of those people who say that 8 layers aren't enough (though I should learn to make do, it'll be good practice) I pretty much agree that layers really are the way to go. It makes it so I don't have to draw the same type of thing over and over again. It really helps with things like blending ground tiles together. Rather than making a blending for grass to dirt, from grass to stone, from stone to dirt, etc... I can just make a layer with all the blends and layer them on top of the solid ground tiles to get my nice transitions. And like TMC said, it's great for decals and windows and stuff for walls, where you won't have to make all the different walls with all the possible combinations of stuff on them.

Well, just my two cents.
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Being from the third world, I reserve the right to speak in the third person.